Talk:Creationism/Archive 2

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Parental control of children

Relevance to Creationism

Some parents tell the children stories of creationism. And other parents sue in court to keep creationism out of public schools.

Some parents think they should protect their children from the doctrines that the majority wants to teach. Rednblu 00:48, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Removing children from parental control?

No doubt there are people who would question whether parents should have the right to decide how their children should be raised and/or what their children should be taught in school, but for me that issue is a non-starter. The only exceptions that I see to that general rule are the issues of when children should be removed from an abusive parent and/or when children should have the right to emancipate themselves and take on the rights and responsibilities of an adult and/or the right to choose their own legal guardian.

In the United States, minors are more or less automatically emancipated at the age of 18, but for the fact that people under the age of 21 cannot drink alcoholic beverages, people under the age of 25 cannot run for Congress, and people under the age of 35 cannot run for President. Emancipation proceedings for minors over the age of 16 are fairly common, a little less common for minors over the age of 14, and extremely rare (but not unheard of) for minors under the age of 14. -- NetEsq 00:07 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

NetSeq, we are guinea pigs for the new software! Congratulations.

We might do a better job of planning an article if we look at the parental control problem in terms of us figuring out what is going on in the system. When we get a good hypothesis for what is going on in the system, then we can find the experts who have written about the various aspects of what we think is going on.

Does that make sense? I gave you a bit of my story to give you a sense of how wrong I think parents often are. But, even if my parents were wrong, I'm glad that no state agency took me away from them. It was a great lesson in how to safely fight authority without giving in.

So what would be a theme to thread through our article describing what is going on in the Creationism versus evolution debate? Rednblu 00:48, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Is Creationism a hypothesis?

... without the context of the Theory of Evolution, there would not be an article on creation science/creationism. The same thing cannot be said about the Theory of Evolution: It stands on its own two feet ... (NetEsq 16:08 23 Jul 2003 (UTC))

Netesq, this is a very interesting statement; and as I think about it, the more interesting it is (it couldn't be more opposite of my own views of the issue). But, before I settle into my conclusions about what you mean by it, I should ask first, what do you mean by it? Mkmcconn 15:20, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There is creationism qua creationism, which is a purely theological topic, but that topic has been lost in the noise of the controversy in re creationism qua creation science. Creation science, such as it is, owes its existence to the Theory of Evolution. To wit, creation science seeks to discredit and/or disprove the Theory of Evolution in favor of a literal interpretation of the story of Genesis. In striking contrast, the Theory of Evolution began as an explanation by Charles Darwin and his contemporaries in re empirical observations of the fossil record and/or the speciation that occurs in nature. -- NetEsq 16:43, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

What you are saying is reflected in the article. Its structure, its arguments, all show creationism as a hypothesis offered as an alternative to evolution. I think that you've put your finger on what has bugged me about this article from the beginning. It is an account of creationism the way that evolutionists encounter it.

In contrast, evolution as the typical creationist looks at it, is an alternative to religion: and that's the reason that the debate takes the form that it does. In that context, creationism serves only an "evidential" purpose, an apologetics intent: as such, you are right that it does not stand on its own, because it is an answer to the "objections" of evolutionism as a form of anti-religion. But, this suggests that the correct way to believe in God is as an explanatory hypothesis, alternative to evolution. I would suggest that the reason that creationism in these terms fails to "stand on its own", is because it is only being described by indirection: in terms of its answer to evolution. What creationism is on its own, is not really explained. Mkmcconn 17:49, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The current Creationism page is NOT about creationism

<< What creationism is on its own, is not really explained. >>

I wholeheartedly agree. As I'm sure you remember, I attempted to point out that creationism is not synonymous with creation science, and I argued for the creation (pun intended) of a separate article on creationism qua creationism in theology. Somehow that article ended up getting redirected to the present creationism qua creation science article, and the article on creationism qua creationism in theology ended up in the article on creation beliefs. I am not particularly satisfied with the way that played out, but I feel that I've more or less shot my wad on this issue: I'm not particularly well-informed on the theological aspects of creationism, and I would have a difficult time making a case for creationism qua creationism in theology having its own article. -- NetEsq 18:18, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

OK. But, what I think I'm learning here is the explanation for why article is such an inadequate expansion on the definition: In modern usage, creationism is the belief that God, has created or substantially contributed to the development of life, the universe, and everything in it. That is indeed what creationism is. But the debate, recounted from that point on, is not about that. Instead, it is about the conflict with naturalism and evolution, where the chief combatants on the other side are the likes of Dawkins, Provine and Gould. This is what creationism is as it is encountered in a particular set of conflicts (the secular university and public school classroom); and it is only in that conflict that it is presented as a scientific hypothesis. But what is creationism apart from that conflict? What does it mean, when the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic bishops reject "creationism", but insist that God has created all things? Mkmcconn 23:39, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<<That is indeed what creationism is. But the debate, recounted from that point on, is not about that.>>

Exactly. As NetEsq so eloquently expands below, the current Creationism page does not expound on what creationism is. In contrast, when I compare the Evolution page, there is a good accounting of what evolution is. -- And, of course, there are a few paragraphs on the Evolution page that give an opposing view of the creationist interpretation of the facts.

So what would a Creationism page look like if it said what creationism is? It seems to me that what creationism is has nothing to do with evolution. After all, creationism is at least as old as "In the beginning, God . . . ." And all of those events happened long before Evolution was even a gleam in Darwin's evil eye. Rednblu 00:04, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The current page is well structured and explains exactly what the word "creationism" refers to in modern societies: a belief system and partially a political movement that offers an alternative view on the origins of life and the universe to the theory of evolution and modern cosmology. As would be expected, this article explains how and why some adherents to this belief system attempt to change the status quo within the education system and within society in general. That status quo is described in evolution, where it belongs. Likewise, we would not discuss the Reciprocal System of Theory in general physics articles, even though it tries to supplant classical physics, but discuss its arguments against the status quo in the article about it instead. NPOV dictates that the placement of views depends on the standing of their adherents. I quote:

Now an important qualification. Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. None of this, however, is to say that minority views cannot receive as much attention as we can possibly give them on pages specifically devoted to those views. There is no size limit to Wikipedia. (emphasis mine)

From a scientific point of view, creationism is very much a fringe movement, and accordingly, its arguments against science are discussed in the article about that movement. On the other hand, modern creationists make claims about evolution -- thus, logically, the views of experts on evolution should be discussed in the context within which these claims are made, namely the creationism article. Both the modern use of the term "creationism" and the social relevance of creationism make it furthermore justifiable to discuss the details of different beliefs on how exactly creation came about in a separate article: creation beliefs. This article itself is a synthesis of parts of this article and the originally redundant creation myths article.

Your repeated attempts to rewrite this article according to an incomplete understanding of our policies are, frankly, tiresome and annoying. I very much enjoyed reading your article about atomism and hope to read more new articles from you soon instead of silly attempts to destroy the work of other contributors in violation of our policy.—Eloquence 01:25, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)

I understand that you think you are justified in your censorship. But reason will win. And you will lose. You will see. This has nothing to do with me. I am merely the messenger. Rednblu 01:35, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

And I am the key master. Now where is the gatekeeper? It's time to unleash the Marshmallow Man.—Eloquence

If I may be so bold, and play the Devil's Advocate on your behalf, the primary conflict here seems to be a philosophical and moral one wherein atheists, agnostics, and secular scientists seek to impeach the value of theology as a field of inquiry. Assuming, arguendo, that this is the motive of evolutionists, one could logically impeach the arguments of evolutionists in re creationism (qua creationism in theology) as being red herring arguments and/or fallacious arguments ignoratio elenchi. This fallacy occurs when an advocate of a particular position is ignorant of the logical implications of his or her own premises and (as a result) draws a conclusion that misses the point and/or changes the subject to draw a conclusion that no reasonable person would dispute. -- NetEsq 02:10, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Why the evolutionists will not let the creationists say what Creationism is

Tannin has just reverted an edit by Jtocci without discussing any of his reasons, so I reverted it back. I see nothing wrong with the arguments Jtocci added so would like Tannin to point out the problems before he reverts it back. Angela 00:58, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It seems pretty obvious to me that what Tannin took out, and you put back, is nothing but an attempt to ridicule evolutionary thought by creating a straw man argument that evolution science doesn't believe. RickK

• Revert it you feel strongly about it. I was objecting to the revert without discussion not to a revert per se. Personally, I thought it was worded fairly neutrally, with phrases such as "Creationists ask..." rather than outright statements of fact, but I do not wish to comment on whether those phrases are straw men or not. Angela 02:07, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

• If I get the time I will re-write the entire article to discuss creationism--I now know what it should look like. I only made these small changes today to gauge the audience. I'd say those who made changes without justification are acting on emotion and not ready to see an article with a NPOV that discusses creationism. I invite all that fit in that category to go check out the evolution page. You'll likely tolerate it better.Jtocci 02:58, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I agree with Jtocci that someone should "re-write the entire Creationism article to discuss creationism." However, I disagree with what Jtocci has written in rebutting evolution. For, it seems to me, none of those rebuttals of evolution address what Creationism is; hence, none of Jtocci's rebuttals of evolution should be on the Creationism page. The historical record suggests that, until evolution appeared on the scene, creationism was all about revelation and none about science. Furthermore, the arguments of the creation scientists, incuding Jtocci's accurate and worthy quotes, show that creationism still is about revelation and not about science. Accordingly, Jtocci's comments perhaps should be on a totally different page Creationism versus evolution, as I read NetEsq to argue repeatedly on these pages. But the evolutionists will not allow the truth to be spoken. Instead of designing and performing some convincing demonstrations of their evolution theory, they repeatedly revert to some form of censorship, as in Aguillard or as in Tannin's recent emotional reversions of creationist arguments on Wikipedia. Rednblu 05:40, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I reverted under the "obvious nonsense" rule: the edit, among other grossly POV silliness, said that "no transitional form has ever been found", for example - and that's about as far from the verified, accepted, uncontroversial truth of the matter as it's possible to get. See any biology textbook. Tannin 03:08, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I concur with Tannin. Creationism has validity in the context of theology, and I think this article could be much improved by re-orienting it to a theological perspective. However, when creationists attempt to impeach the scientific validity of evolution with hackneyed straw man arguments, the "obvious nonsense rule" should obtain, sans discussion. -- NetEsq 03:46, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The theological perspectives on creationism are already discussed in detail in creation beliefs. This article makes quite clear that usage of the term creationism has shifted from referring to specific theological concepts to describing the belief in the creation of the universe or Earth by a deity. I fail to see what kind of "theological perspective" is missing.—Eloquence 08:38, Aug 18, 2003 (UTC)

Let's not revert stuff merely because we don't agree with it

Let's not revert stuff, merely because we don't agree with it. I myself have no opinion on no transitional form has ever been found and neither should the article. Why not say this?

Mr. X, a creationist, maintains that no transitional form has ever been found. Mr. Y, an evolutionist, calls this claim "arrant poppycock"

Of course, we might want a put a bit more detail on the views of X and Y, such as (a) on what basis X claims no such form has been found; (b) what precisely a "transitional form" is supposed to be; and (c) what evidence Y advances in favor of them (certain fossils, I guess).

Let's not suppress each other's pet ideas, but help one another give them their fullest expression. I really want to know why creationists believe in creationsm, and I really want to know why evolutionists believe in evolution. Please help one another to make an article of lasting value. --Uncle Ed 13:48, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You are very generous, my friend. The evolutionists have so riddled the Creationism page with their censorship and hopeful delusions that the current Creationism page is a first-magnitude disgrace in the history of mankind. I say that, and I am an evolutionist. I suggest it is time that we all re-write the Creationism page with a careful attention to fact. I suggest a first fact to start with is this: Creationism was here upon this earth--as a theory--long before Evolution was here upon this earth as a theory. I cite a simple fact. Robert Chambers wrote the Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation while evolution was but only an evil gleam in Charles Darwin's eye. Robert Chambers wrote in 1844:

How can we suppose an immediate exertion of this creative power at one time to produce zoophytes, another time to add a few marine mollusks, another to bring in one or two conchifers, again to produce crustaceous fishes, again perfect fishes, and so on to the end? This would surely be to take a very mean view of the Creative Power--to, in short, anthropomorphize it, or reduce it to some such character as that borne by the ordinary proceedings of mankind. And yet this would be unavoidable; for that the organic creation was thus progressive through a long space of time, rests on evidence which nothing can overturn or gainsay. Some other idea must then be come to with regard to THE MODE in which the Divine Author proceeded in the organic creation. Let us seek in the history of the earth's formation for a new suggestion on this point. We have seen powerful evidence, that the construction of this globe and its associates, and inferentially that of all the other globes of space, was the result, not of any immediate or personal exertion on the part of the Deity, but of natural laws which are expressions of his will. What is to hinder our supposing that the organic creation is also a result of natural laws, which are in like manner an expression of his will? More than this, the fact of the cosmical arrangements being an effect of natural laws is a powerful argument for the organic arrangements being so likewise, for how can we suppose that the august Being who brought all these countless worlds into form by the simple establishment of a natural principle flowing from his mind, was to interfere personally and specially on every occasion when a new shell-fish or reptile was to be ushered into existence on ONE of these worlds? [1]

Let us begin to attend to facts and re-write the Creationism page with pinpoint citations in support instead of the evolutionist censorship and evolutionist hand-wavings for proof that repeatedly interrupt the exposition of what Creationism is. Rednblu 15:42, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Oh god, this man is a raving lunatic. Sysops and others, please be aware: Here Rednblu admits he will be trying to totally rewrite Wikipedia articles on this subject in a fundamentalist creationist fashion. This is very dangerous. We should all keep a close watch on this issue. RK

These are exactly the sort of contentious posts that thwart good faith attempts to write articles that all parties will find acceptable. Rednblu is not a "raving lunatic," and the people who revert hackneyed straw man arguments are not "evolutionist censors." Nonetheless, as I have stated many times, the current article could be greatly improved by greater emphasis on the theological aspects of creationism and less emphasis on the pseudo-scientific aspects of creation science. If anyone else agrees with me, you might want to take a step back and work on improving the current theology article. -- NetEsq 17:10, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

<<people who revert hackneyed straw man arguments are not "evolutionist censors.">> I find this an interesting hypothesis which I would like to examine on the Talk:Censorship page to avoid clutter here.

<<the current article could be greatly improved by greater emphasis on the theological aspects of creationism and less emphasis on the pseudo-scientific aspects of creation science.>> I agree with you. In my opinion, creationism is all theology. Hence, logically the scientific rebuttal to pseudo-scientific aspects of creation science should be moved to another page.

If theologians find these issues interesting and write about their theological implications, that by itself doesn't mean that these topics are in the domain of theology, per se, any more than if a theologian writes about the recipe of lemon pie. If the theologian mistakes a bad source of science for a good one, that reflects only indirectly on his theology: he isn't expected to be an excellent scientist (unless his god is natural science, if there is such a theology) Mkmcconn \

Creationism, in contrast, is the work of people writing about science, with the aim of illustrating their belief in God's existence. That means, every one of them is a religious apologist, including those who claim not to be religious. They are not "doing science", and they are not "doing theology". They are engaging in apologetics, or at least speculative natural theology. Their job is to draw on science to illustrate their theology. If they draw from bad scientific sources, or use bad, illogical, unpersuasive or deceptive arguments they are bad apologists, just as they should be judged poor if they have bad theology. But the fact that they are apologists does not in itself make them "pseudo-scientists". Dawkins is not a "pseudo-scientist" just because he exploits science in his apology for atheism: although, some think he's open to the charge. Mkmcconn 01:20, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

<<Creationism, in contrast, is the work of people writing about science>>

Creationism doesn't read to me like science--because it looks to me like it starts from a revelation. Expanding on what you say, "their job is to draw on science to illustrate their" revelation, the Bible being a principal revelation. So maybe the Creationism page should be about revelation, and maybe all the science and pseudo-science should be moved to another page. Rednblu 02:53, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Creationism is not science. It consists of writings about science. Is the term "apologetics" really that unhelpful, in seeing what these writers are doing? Mkmcconn 03:44, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

<<improving the current theology article>> Again, I find this an interesting idea. Could we talk on Talk:Theology? Rednblu 22:57, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am wholly in favor of moving the content of the present article on creationism to creation science or (even better) scientific creationism, thereby leaving the creationism article to cover the topic of creationism in the context of theology. Indeed, this was my original suggestion, long since steamrolled over in favor of stuffing creationism into the article on creation beliefs, which is a wholly unsatisfactory solution. -- NetEsq 03:38, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

If the article is about all of those views which in a general encyclopedia (as opposed to a religious encyclopedia) would be called "creationist", how can this exclude all of the science, bad science, and pseudo-science that could be gathered under that title? An encyclopedia article under "creationism", will be written under a term attached to a specific controversy (regrettably), or it won't be about what people will encounter outside of this encyclopedia. In a encyclopedia of theology, views would be compared under "Creation" or "Doctrine of Creation". A much narrower subject would appear under "Creationism". Mkmcconn 03:44, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Good question. I am thinking. How about the international structure of this controversy. Isn't this "creation science" thing an American fad? Surely creationism in Britain is simply creationism--because in Britain, if the local community wants to teach religion to their kids, they simply teach religion to their kids--without the pretense of science or pseudo-science. Rednblu 04:04, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's a phenomenon radiating from the English speaking world, to the rest of the world. It's capitals are in the US, Australia, and Britain. Wherever Seventh-day Adventists are, there is Young Earth Creationism and Flood Geology (because these are part of their religion, made so by a vision reported by Ellen G. White). SDAs are stronger in other parts of the world, than in they are in their American home. Many Evangelicals, all over the world reject evolution entirely, and their influence is felt among fundamentalist Jews and even Muslims all over the world. I am convinced that it's some sort of wishful thinking, Euro-centric myth, that these are views limited to the fanatical yankee puritans. Mkmcconn 04:47, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

On the other hand, this is the picture only as it has developed in the last 100 years. Prior to that, "creationism" was much more widely believed by conservative Evangelicals to include some kind of Evolution under the guidance of God. B.B. Warfield, universally recognized as one of the fathers of modern "Fundamentalism" and the modern "doctrine of inerrancy", referred to himself as a "Darwinist of the purest water" (not without controversy, of course; but without censure, and that's what's interesting). It is of highest interest to historians of Evangelicalism, how this picture came to shift so dramatically. Mkmcconn \

But, what's most interesting to me is that this article is about believers in Creation in the widest possible sense, including ID, non-monotheists, and even Mormons (who believe in the eternality of matter). That's what makes me think that the controversy described here, is actually the controversy between atheism and theism; not the Creationism controversy. Mkmcconn 04:47, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

<< . . . [T]he controversy described here, is actually the controversy between atheism and theism; not the Creationism controversy >>

I echo these sentiments. -- NetEsq 04:58, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am stronlgy opposed to this plan and have so far not seen any cogent argument in favor of it. Rednblu has campaigned on this page tirelessly against a supposed conspiracy of "evolutionist censors". This conspiracy is a figment of his overactive imagination. The article in question discusses what it is meant to discuss, the modern creationist movement, which is primarily a Christian, US-centric phenomenon. Detailed aspects of creation theology are discussed where they would be expected, in creation beliefs, with no preferential treatment for any particular faith. Readers who expect information about creationism will want creationist positions and activities to be discussed in this article.

"Scientific creationism" is a contradiction in terms -- it is a POV term that is unacceptable as a Wikipedia article title. The section "Defining creationism" explains exactly why the article is written in the way it is written. If you seek to expand this section, I am wholly in favor of that. If individual positions eventually take up too much space, we can talk about splitting them away. But the current logical setup is the most reasonable one and I would appreciate it if people could concentrate on adding useful material instead of trying to destroy existing structures in favor of highly questionable constructs that satisfy little more than personal idiosyncracies.—Eloquence 04:59, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

Uncle Ed, do not read the following. It does not matter that "scientific creationism" is a contradiction in terms. How could POV terms be "unacceptable" if they are the terms that people use in reality? That you see a POV term as "unacceptable" is symptomatic of the problem here. You have not reached a NPOV level from which you can see that "scientific creationism" is just another POV label that people in reality use--with no more threat to your dearest beliefs than the other oxymorons in the English language such as "free market," "Communist conspiracy," or "free love." If you do not permit the oxymoron and POV label "free market" to be used, you will cause the kind of nonsense page that you have at Creationism. The nonsense label "free market" stands for something in the real world because people make it stand for something even if you object very strongly from your POV to what the label stands for. Wake up! Rednblu 05:28, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

"Free market" is a far less POV-loaded term than "scientific creationism". Both critics and advocates of a free market economy agree that a free market is theoretically possible; they may not agree about its practical possibility. "Creation science" is not used as a theoretical concept but to describe an actual movement. At this point, the question must be asked whether this label is reasonably acceptable. For "free market", there is no equivalent neutral substitute -- the term is universally used. "Creation science", on the other hand, is less often used than "creationism" (by a factor 4 according to Google), and while creationism is used by critics and believers alike, creation science is primarily used by those who believe in creation and want their beliefs to be accepted. When referring to the "free love" movement, the same questions would have to be asked, and for good reasons we do not have an article titled communist conspiracy.—Eloquence 11:38, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

KRS' additions

KRS added the following:

Hinduism, Creationism and Evolutionism

Hinduism doesn't see a conflict between creation and evolution. In Hinduism, the triumvirate [Gods] Brahma- Vishnu- Shiva are considered respectively Creator- Protector- Destroyer.The various Avatars of Vishnu the Dasavathara [Dasa=10, Avatar= incarnation]are generally accepted as showing a remarkable and very close co-relation with Darwinian evolution.

The Avatars are as follows 1.Matsya- fish 2.Koorma- turtle 3.Varaha- single horned pig 4.Narasimha -half lion half man 5.Vamana- dwarf 6.Parasurama- a great sage 7.Rama - a great and righteous king 8.Balarama- brother of Krishna 9.Krishna- a popular God who was a cowherd 10. Kalki- God on a horse.

[There are also other versions of the Dasavatar, one of which incorporates the Buddha]

According to popular belief, the first nine avatars are already completed, the tenth avatar is yet to come and would coincide with Pralaya when the world would end in water- to rise yet again. This is supposedly in the near future in the Kali-Yuga, yuga being a unit of time.

The concept of cyclic time is central to Hinduism [unlike the concept of linear time in many other religions]. In fact, time is represented as a wheel- 'Kaala Chakra- Wheel of Time'.Probably this could be one of the reasons why there is no conflict between religion and science in Hinduism.

Probably any debate on creationism Vs evolutionism would have to necessarily include and accomodate the concept and theories of time.

An interesting point is that though Brahma is considered the Creator, unlike Vishnu and Shiva,there is no temple of worship for him reasons for which are given in myths.

Since hinduism does not see the conflict which is the center of this article (which focuses on the modern usage of the word "creationism"), this material probably belongs on creation beliefs. It could use some copyediting first, though.—Eloquence 21:31, Aug 19, 2003 (UTC)

I agree. KRS might also want to correct or expand what is in the Creator god article, as well. Mkmcconn 21:52, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think you are being Eurocentric by removing the section on Hinduism. I agree that this section was a] not well written b] too long with some irrelevant info c] needs more coherence.

Please do not accuse Mkmcconn, for all intents and purposes, of racism. He simply is pointing out that the material recently added is off-topic, and should be put in an article better suited for it. Your claims of Eurocentrism are unfounded, and insulting. RK 12:29, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I meant whoever removed the section on Hinduism. Anyway, now I am out of the debate, there is an intro which satisfies meKRS 13:50, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

But I don't agree with the fact that it is controversial or should come in some other section. If this was a specific article on Christian beliefs I would not have even touched the page. The first sentence clearly says that creationism believes that God created man and evolutionism that man evolved through natural selection. In such a general context, if you point out that in Christianity a conflict occurs between both beliefs and add on that most scientists don't believe in Creationism, I have an equal right to add that in Hinduism there is not much of a conflict. How can you say that because there is no conflict it need not be included? It is precisely because of this that it has to be included.In connection with the mention of surveys, in India, the most learned and brilliant scientists still believe in God and are not atheists because of this lack of conflict. But I have not mentioned this because, there is no scientifc survey, just a general acceptance that religion and science coexist peacefully.

In Islam, for example, figurative sculpture is not allowed because only God can create man, and man is not allowed to create man. This is also germane to the discussion. probably someone weel versed in this should add on info.

Accusations of Eurocentric bias

This remark of mine below was based on a previous Wikipedia definition of what creationism was- it was very ambiguous and could have included many beliefs. Now the definition has been rewritten, and taking the definition at face value, I am currently suspending my subscription to my previous viewpoint. I believe that there are still ambiguities in the definition, but I am not an expert and I don't want to intervene. I am only writing this because people tend to interpret reactions out of context when the original stimulus is no more visible [ User Miguel- please note] --KRS 05:12, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Noted :-) — Miguel

Ok. But you taught me a lot by what you said. In following up on your comments, I explored a little of the Hindu traditions of Creationism. Here is what I found. I will give you citations to the evolutionist censors' own Bible--the venerable Talk.origins archives. Scan this page and you will see the documentation on the creationism from many faiths other than that of the Christian God.

And on this page, you will see a review of Hinduism's own leading creation scientist, last seen surfing near the Bhaktivedanta Institute, San Diego. Again that link is straight to the evolutionist censors' own Bible marker, none other than the venerable Talk.origins archives. (That last poetical repetition of the chorus was an invitation for RK to censor what his myopic eyes see as a repeated paragraph.)

And for a nightcap, there is even a wonderful NBC special narrated by Charlton Heston, that dear man, who introduces many creationists both Hindu and Christian. Here I can offer you two chapters from the evolutionist censors' own Bible--chapter and verse.

It seems that the evolutionist censors' Bible does not treat Hindu Creationism with any more respect than it does the Christian Creationism. So maybe you are right in not insisting that the Creationism page be corrected to deal with reality. What good would it do to get the evolutionist censors to expand their parochial POV and recognize that there are indeed Creators other than the Christian ones that they harden their veins and hearts against? Good night again! Rednblu 06:37, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Not so fast! I realize you are a very generous person, but, in my humble opinion, that current definition at the top of the Creationism page is a mere parochial POV and is simply--wrong. That definition is the logical equivalent of defining religion as only Christian. In my experience, creationism is a very active element of Hinduism. Just a second and I will find you an internet link. Be right back. Rednblu 05:30, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I would like to rewrite the Hinduism angle in just a few sentences without the specifics. [I admit I got a bit carried away with the details] If you don't want me to,then you have to rephrase what Creationism is to mean that it is a specific belief associated with Christianity where people believe that God created man. Please don't disappoint me by subscribing only to one point of view, especially in such a touchy topic like religion. KRS 03:59, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes. You have stated a problem that has bothered me from the beginning about this Creationism page; it is parochially biased and too Christian. It is as if the "controllers" of this page will not let you say anything on the subject of this page unless you toe the line of either a Christian creationist or an Anti-Christian evolutionist. No other views of Creationism are allowed here. The justification for the exclusion of other views is that the other views of Creationism have not generated the conflict with the "scientists" that Christian creationism has. Rednblu 05:05, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Once again, you're missing the point. The reason these views are not discussed here is that they are not relevant here -- there is no Hindu creationist movement. The term "creationism" is simply not applicable as KRS himself has stated. There are, however, creation beliefs in Hinduism, which are conspicuously missing from that article.—Eloquence 05:11, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

Then, wouldn't it be prudent to narrow the definition, as KRS has suggested, and to focus on Creationism as the name of a controversy with evolution? The only thing that bugs me about the article, is that it shifts meanings as it goes along. What is described in the opening paragraph, is a creation belief. What is described thereafter is a conflict between primarily Christian apologists (read 'anti-evolutionists'), and evolution (read, 'atheism', or 'naturalism'). Those who are attempting to explain evolution in terms that do not conflict with faith are also, somehow, on the 'evolutionist' side against 'creationism', at one point, and the other way around later (I think). I find this very confusing and I can't figure out, from section to section, who is who. Mkmcconn 05:43, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Eloquence, if you say that there is no Hindu Creationist movement, I have to take your word on it, I am not an expert. By Creationist if you mean a conscious movement,then my addition is irrelevant. The main confusion is this- is any person who believes in God a creationist or is it an explicitly stated and taken position? If the former, my addition is valid, if the latter, it is not . If the latter, then why don't you make it clear in the article that Creationism is a conscious movement, predominantly having a following from adherents of Christianity, that stems from the belief that God created man.... or whatever. BTW, I am a Hindu, not a Hindu fundamentalist, practically an atheist[only because it is not scientific to denounce what you don't know ]or [I think] an agnostic and not a male- just to deconstruct any mental picture you have of me:-)KRS 05:34, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

<<Once again, you're missing the point.>>

Of course, I missed your point--because you refuse to deal with reality. My job is to keep stating reality. You have an idea that Creationism is necessarily in conflict with something structurally equivalent to what you call "science." KRS has pointed out to you again and again that you are wrong. You are wrong because you have a very parochial view of creationism and a very parochial view of "science." And KRS is right. Now KRS is a civilized person, and therefore he or she will, as you say, concede the part of the point that you want to protect to keep your POV intact. I am merely stating the way that it is; you are wrong and KRS is right. Rednblu 05:41, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I never stated that creationism is necessarily in conflict with science, I stated that most people who call themselves "creationists" consider it in conflict with science or want it to be given equal attention in education. This article is not about some view of creationism that you may have, it is about the meaning of the word "creationism", and the creationist movement, today. This is our policy: articles should focus on the modern meaning of a word. What you want is an article on theological beliefs about creation -- "uninterrupted by criticisms". That article already exists and is, correctly, titled creation beliefs. Please concentrate your energy on improving existing articles instead of engaging in time-consuming and unproductive structural debates. You may consider this debate interesting, for me it is primarily a waste of my time for which I hold you responsible. And I have no choice to waste my time on these debates if I want to prevent this article from being turned into a POV mess similar to the one it was before I restructured it. Now who is controlling whom? —Eloquence 11:46, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

The way I understand creationism, it really is a belief that the account of creation in the Genesis is true, and it really is largely confined to the USA. The way I understand ethnocentrism, the article would be Eurocentric or Americocentric if it were phrased in a way that didn't make that clear and claimed or lent itself to the interpretation that every religion adheres to these beliefs, or that opposition to evolution is prevalent in every culture. Since that is not the case, the article is not Eurocentric. -- Miguel

The terms eurocentric and americocentric are derived from the term ethnocentrism, one of the fundamental concepts in anthropology. As a general rule, ethnocentrism is not perceived as "good" or "bad," but it is definitely seen as something to guard against when engaging in "participant observation," a technique that anthropologists use when engaging in ethnography. All too often, people tend to misinterpret the behavior and opinions of people from cultures exotic to their own because of cultural bias. A simple example is the business custom of shaking hands. When American businesspeople first interacted with Japanese businesspeople, the Americans offered a firm handshake in lieu of a bow, which was perceived by the Japanese as an intentional insult. This assumption is easily correctible, but many ethnocentric assumptions take place at a subsconscious level. -- NetEsq 16:43, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Christians supposedly controlling this article

<< [T]he "controllers" of this page will not let you say anything on the subject of this page unless you toe the line of either a Christian creationist or an Anti-Christian evolutionist. >>

To be clear, there are no "controllers" of this page. Rather, there is one particularly "eloquent" Wikipedian who sees no merit to the views expressed by various other Wikipedians who are very unhappy with the current state of the creationism article, and he enjoys the silent support of other Wikipedians who don't really understand what the big deal is. This type of impasse is not uncommon here at Wikipedia, and I have abandoned my fair share of POV disputes after noting my objections. In any event, the best way to resolve such impasses -- when they can be resolved -- is through the passage of time and (more importantly) through the involvement of more Wikipedians. -- NetEsq 06:03, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thank you, NetEsq, for putting this succinctly. There is no Christian control of this page. I am beginning to see some anti-Christian and anti-European statements here that really bother me. RK 12:29, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Just checking: Are the terms "Eurocentric" and "UScentric" perceived as meaning something more than "I assume things elsewhere are much as they are where I am"? Mkmcconn 13:23, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The term "Eurocentric" was a widely code-word among black supremacists for racism against everyone who is not a white European, by all (or nearly all) people of white European descent. This use of the term has moved into parts of the mainstream. On many college campuses, in African studies, Black studies, Womens Studies departments, and even some English departments, this term is often a code word for racist denigration of non-white views. On the other hand, to most Americans, the word "Eurocentric" probably has little meaning at all. Fortunately, many Wikipedia users on the WikiEn list use it in a non-perjorative way, and they use this term in the same way that you think it means. RK 13:35, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes. Of course. I am being dramatic. But in the process, I appreciate everyone's contributions to what I am learning here. To summarize, I hypothesize that our conversation about the Creationism page mirrors the structure of the problem in the outer world. And I appreciate your coming in and out of the conversation and not abandoning the knotty problem here. Sure, there are no "controllers" here. But I would not feel that I knew a very good solution if I could not come up with something that the "controllers" would not look at and say, "Well. Maybe you have a point. Give it a try." So I think my job is to keep coming up with more ideas. I liked your idea that the page should be titled Creation science. And Mkm's question about making the page match people's experience made me think. And Elo's complaints about "Creation science" as a title made me think about the problems of oxymoronic and POV titles for pages. Is this learning worthwhile? It is at least as entertaining as the book I am supposed to be writing. Thank you and good night all. Rednblu 06:16, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

My views have shifted along the way, as well. I was originally (overly?) jealous of the fact that the term, "creationism", is tied to the creation science controversy, so tightly and confusingly. It's too bad that the discussion is too long for most people to read, because I think that it might be one of the most interesting dialogues concerning the debate, in terms of an overview, that I have ever come across. But, I regret it if it has seemed to be a destraction, rather than serving toward the improvement of the article. Mkmcconn 14:44, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Upper Case C for all mentions of Creationism

Eloquence, now the intro is clear and I am getting out of the debate. But I think that wherever the word creationism is mentioned it should be represented by an upper case C- this will remove any remaining ambiguity. I am not touching the article, so please obligeKRS 15:07, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Interesting suggestion. I'll have to think about that.—Eloquence 15:09, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

Definitions

I wish there were some way to clear the air. Maybe all this "hot air" could move over to the global warming article, heh heh. But, seriously, folks...

We need clear definitions of terms. Can we say that creationism is the belief that God deliberately created life? And that a particular major current of creationism claims that deliberately created ALL forms of life, including every species known to man?

Can we come to some sort of agreement over how to classify those creation beliefs that are not involved in the "creation vs. evolution" debate? I think Eloquence moved or advocated moving some of the Hindu ideas into another article, on the grounds that they are MERE BELIEFS.

I guess it is "creation science" or "scientific creationism" that causes the biggest fuss here. I'm reading a book by Larry Witham which says that English-speaking creationists reacted to the Darwin centennial by re-asserting their religious beliefs. This assertion included the claim that geology backs up the Old Testament account of Creation. Of course, the outcry against this claim has been loud and long.

Really, we need at least one or two articles to cover creationist ideas properly.

1. an article that explains in detail what creationism is, who believes it, and why
2. an article which describes the debate between creationists and their opponents
3. an article about the intelligent design movement

If we can cover all this material in one article, that's fine and dandy. But it might requre multiple articles. It goes without saying that no article which speaks about evolution will go unchallenged for more than a day or two around here, if it attempts to "disprove" evolutionist ideas. I don't think any of us imagine we could or ought to write an article which uses the Wikipedia name to endorse anti-evolution ideas -- or for that matter, pro-evolution ideas. That wouldn't be neutral; Jimbo said that this encyclopedia shouldn't take sides in controversies.

However many number of articles we settle on, we should try first to agree on an editorial policy. I suggest that we:

• write down what a specific creationist author has said on a particular point, like Smith said fossils came from the Flood.
• write down somewhere at least one evolutionist's rebuttal to this point. (This can be 90% or 99% of the 'space' or 'air time', I don't care!)

I think this will work. What do you all think? --Uncle Ed 15:40, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I agree with Ed that it might be good to have separate articles for the three points he lists, and I think that this article correctly addresses point 1). -- Miguel

Differing definitions from different dictionaries

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

Creationism: Belief in the literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible.

From Princeton's WordNet:

Creationism: the literal belief in the account of creation given in the Book of Genesis; "creationism denies the theory of evolution of species"

From Encarta's Dictionary:

Creationism: belief that God created universe: the belief that the Bible’s account of the Creation is literally true

From Webster's 10th Edition:

Creationism: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis -- compare EVOLUTION 4b

From Columbia Encyclopedia:

creationism, or creation science, belief in the biblical account of the creation of the world as described in Genesis, a characteristic especially of fundamentalist Protestantism (see fundamentalism). Advocates of creationism have campaigned to have it taught in U.S. public schools along with the theory of evolution, which they dispute. [etc.]

And so forth, and so on. Every serious work of reference uses the term creationism in the sense in which it is used here -- to describe the primarily Christian belief in the origins of the universe and life that is opposed to scientific explanations. It is only Rednblu who has been campaigning here for weeks to use creationism according to his pet definition, long after all participants in the debate had agreed on a useful structure. Sadly, Rednblu has managed to again cultivate dissent among the participants in the debate without regard for logic or evidence.—Eloquence 15:50, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

I do not agree with Eloquence's characterization of this dispute, particularly his assertion that he is the voice of reason and his implied assertion that the problem lies with the one person who will not be reasonable and see things his way. In truth, there are many people who never voice an opinion in debates like this because they are afraid of being taken to task. Like it or not, Rednblu speaks for a silent opposition that could very well be a majority but for their desire to stay out of a controversy stained with bad blood. Indeed, the mere existence of the creationism article in its present form speaks volumes to the fact that a significantly large and outspoken group of people think that Eloquence is categorically wrong. -- NetEsq 16:28, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Huh? Please elaborate on the last sentence. Again, no arguments, no facts, no logic, just rhetoric. I don't have time for this. Virtually all modern reference works agree with the definition of creationism presented in this article. If you disagree with it, put up (citations) or shut up.—Eloquence 16:35, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

Netesq is totally wrong; he is way out of line here. This is the English Wikipedia, and it is specifically for English speaking users. Among people who speak English, the word "creationism" refers to precisely the set of beliefs that Eloquence says it does. I do not know why Rednblu is making false claim about bias towards non-Christian views, and I can't figure out why Netesq joining him in this tirade. Eloquence is merely pointing out that the material others want here is out of place in this entry, and is best moved elsewhere. The way you Netesq is responding, you would think he is fighting some Eurocentric Christian conspiracy to control people's minds through propaganda. Chill the heck out. Stop rewriting the dictionary just so you can insult Eloquence. RK 16:38, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Your assumption that the entire English speaking world knows that Creationism relates to Biblical origins is totally wrong. And for your information, the word Eurocentric is not a derogatory term as far as I know, it could just be assumptions like yours. Please keep in mind that most of the world today speaks and thinks and writes in English but need not have the same cultural/ religious associations of Europe/ Christianity/ US whatever KRS 16:57, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article did [does] not mention the meanings suggested by the above mentioned encyclopedias explicitly right away. When as a newcomer I came into the picture, the meaning suggested was a generic one and that's why I participated at the spur of the moment, seeing such a major lacuna. You knew what creationism was, I didn't, but the article gave a wrong beginning impression- the point of the encyclopedia is to inform the ignorant person. Even now, you have introduced this concept only in the second sentence, I think it is still too late an introduction in an encylopedia.The different encyclopedia entries you mention are very clear about this in their very first sentence. As Uncle Ed says, all this 'hot air' is because of a lack of clarity in defining the subject matter at the very beginning. It is not a waste of time for you to counter every newcomer's arguments because the same ambiguity is bound to rise again and again with every new reader unless you see it from their eyes, which you can't- being into the subjectKRS 16:51, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

KRS, I am all for clarifying the language of this article. What I am opposed to is a massive reorganization that contradicts common usage.—Eloquence 17:05, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

In that case, I think that of the definitions you posted, the one from the Columbia Encyclopedia is the best, least ambiguous model. Mkmcconn 17:08, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

<< Please elaborate on the last sentence. >>

I will be happy to do so: "[T]he mere existence of the creationism article in its present form speaks volumes to the fact that a significantly large and outspoken group of people think that Eloquence is categorically wrong." When it comes to the issue of creationism vs. evolution, I agree with virtually everything that you have to say on the subject. To wit, I have engaged many creationists in heated debate and debunked my fair share of straw man arguments in the process, but I am not prepared to dismiss all creationists as kooks.

<< Virtually all modern reference works agree with the definition of creationism presented in this article. >>

That's not true. I pointed this out previously when I cited Webster's New World Dictionary wherein creationism is clearly defined as a theological concept that is totally distinguishable from creation science. To wit, Webster's entry for creationism makes no reference whatsoever to Christianity or the Bible, whereas the entry for creation science does. However, creationism and scientific creationism have become more or less synonymous in common usage, and it is our job as Wikipedians to explain that the two terms do not mean the same thing.

<< Again, no arguments, no facts, no logic, just rhetoric. I don't have time for this. Virtually all modern reference works agree with the definition of creationism presented in this article. If you disagree with it, put up (citations) or shut up. >>

It's like I'm looking in a mirror. Perhaps you would have more "time for this" if you spent less time engaging in the very rhetoric that you seem to find so reprehensible. -- NetEsq 17:30, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Any dictionary that misses the modern usage of creationism is simply incomplete. This article does mention the historical theological usage of the term creationism and distinguishes it from the modern one, as it should. What, exactly, are you missing and why can it not be accomplished within the given structure?—Eloquence 17:34, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

The dictionary that I cited does not "miss the modern usage of creationism." Rather, it lists creationism and creation science side by side as separate entries; after reading both entries, any intelligent person would come to the inescapable conclusion that creation science is a particular type of creationism that is sui generis. To wit, "a theory, concerning the origin of the universe, which states that the literal biblical account of creation can be scientifically verified: essentially rejects Darwinism and much of modern scientific thought, esp. in biology and geology." -- NetEsq 17:41, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You did not answer my question, NetEsq.—Eloquence

But he did. What we need is a place where the people neutral to this debate can put together a NPOV article or series of articles. Any ideas? The Creationism page does not seem to be available for development of a neutral article. We could start with Uncle Ed's outline. We could let all the people who like the current Creationism page be the final judges on whether we did a better page. I wonder what a NPOV page on Creationism would look like. Rednblu 02:22, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I have an idea. Stop trying to force English speaking people to change the way they speak English, in order to further your religious and political agenda. We are not amused by the way that you are making this issue out to be a matter of bias and POV violation. It is not. You show no interest in discussing the topic; rather you just try to force English speakers to redefine how they use the term "Creationism" to meet your peculiar definition. Frankly, I have read dozens of books and articles on the subject, and not a single one uses the peculiar definitions that you and Netesq keep demanding. RK 02:53, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have removed the following paragraph: "Ironically, the creationism debate, as part of the larger evolution debate ( which in turn is a part of the larger "science vs. religion" debate) is largely dispensed with--the scientific world has grown to be more respectful of spiritual life, and the religious world is mostly made of up non-literalists--people who value their religion for its moral values, and less for its literal-and-complete representation of fact."

This isn't correct; in fact, in the United States of America, the opposite is true. The creationism debate not only has not been dispensed with, but Christian fundamentalists in many states are in the process of a full frontal assault on science, by manipulating school boards, and threatening to unseat politicians who refuse to adavance their religious goals in public schools. Organized groups are trying to force school boards to promote Biblical fundamentalist religion in Biology classes. The fact that most scientists respect religion is irrelevant to many religious fundamentalists; the respect is not often returned, and many still view the study of evolution as Satanic. RK 12:23, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

But that paragraph is essentially correct except for Biblical literalists in the United States. If that point were made clear, the paragraph could be reinstated. And that would be the appropriate point to mention Hindu beliefs, etcetera. -- Miguel

If you could add some of these facts to the article, with references, it would help: (a) Christians threatening to unseat politicians should be easy to find in newspapers; (b) accusations/complaints from opponents that Christains are "manipulating" or conducting an "assault", with names and organizational affiliations; (c) and comments from observers or critics on "promoting fundamentalist religion" in class. I wonder the issue of US public schools and evolution should be a separate article. --Uncle Ed 13:33, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

There have been many articles on this issue from CSICOP and Skeptic magazine. In addition, see these websites:

• Creationists taget state of Ohio, USA

• CNN Kansas school board's evolution ruling angers science community

• Mararntha Christian Jouranl - State School Boards Grapple With Evolution Theory

• National Center for Science Education: Defending the Teaching of Evolution in the Public Schools

• The Christian Right Targets School Boards

• Geological Society of America - How to fight creationism in public schools

<<Stop trying to force English speaking people to change the way they speak English, in order to further your religious and political agenda.>>

I do not object to you calling me POV or mischaracterizing us as having a "religious or political" agenda. How about the following as grounds upon which we can talk? We need an unofficial place in Wikipedia where we could develop a NPOV article on Creationism. You can control the official Creationism page. Uncle Ed has some great ideas, NetEsq has some great ideas, and you have some great ideas. We could develop a NPOV article on Creationism. I am sure of it. Rednblu

We already have a good Creationism page. You should are just anrgy that the rest of us English speakers do not define "creationism" the way you wish it would be defined. Too bad. Stop rewriting the dictionary to win an argument. RK

I agree that the article is pretty good already. -- Miguel

I won't even restore my complete comment. I let the record stand. Why would you butcher my comment? Surely you know some limits to your bloodthirst for censorship. Rednblu 16:01, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Stop lying. Your text is still here. Stop harassing me for the "crime" of not agreeing with your childish attempts to rewrite the dictionary. I also have to wonder what kind of person would take an intellectual disagreement and label it as "bloodthirst". I am unsure of why you see violence where none exists, but you may need to take a look within yourself, an ask where all this rage is coming from. It is not healthy, my friend. RK

What I mean by NPOV is that the whole article would characterize as faithfully as possible what the various people have said--without homogenizing the points-of-view. As an experiment, I with the help of many others put together the atomism page to illustrate NPOV on a highly incendiary subject. Rednblu 15:24, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Arguments for Creationism

This page desperately needs an Arguments for Creationism section to go after the Arguments against evolution section, but I'm not qualified to write it. Populus 16:13, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

What topics would you put in an "Arguments for Creationism" section? Rednblu 21:48, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

There are a number of must-read FAQs at the Talk.origins archive. The content of these FAQs can and should be recapitulated here. -- NetEsq 23:10, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I suspect that some people may object to some statements throughout the article as being anti-creationist POV. If that is the problem, maybe those statements (whatever they are) could be listed here for discussion...

I actually think that the approach should be the opposite as Populus suggest. Namely, arguments against evolution should be moved to the evolution article, and any anti-creationist arguments that are in this article should be collected in an "arguments against creationism" section, either here or in "creation science". This argument is supposed to be a dispassionate description of Creationism, after all. -- Miguel

No doubt this article should be a dispassionate description of what creationism is, but I don't see that happening any time soon. As I have stated previously, creationism is first and foremost a theological topic whereas creation science is a particular type of creationism. Ultimately, what is needed is a separate article entitled creation science.

As it stands right now, the assertion of Eloquence is that creationism as a theological topic is an antiquated concept. To prove this "fact," he points to dictionary definitions of creationism that agree with his position and dismisses those definitions that contradict him. Unless and until creationism is recognized as a legitimate topic that is the province of theologists, the debate over creation science will continue unabated. Those who recognize this plain simple truth would be well-advised to expand the coverage of the theology article rather than be forced to take sides in the battle between scientists and religious fundamentalists. -- NetEsq 23:10, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Ok, let's do this section by section. What are the objections to this? (alternatively, can you quote paragraphs from the article that you dispute?)

Good idea. Welcome to this circus, Miguel. Rednblu 01:37, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Creationism is the belief, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible (Genesis), that God created the universe and all life within it, especially mankind. In this sense, creationism has its origin in the Hebrew Bible and classical Judaism, and was adopted early on in Christianity.

Using the term creationism in this sense is relatively recent, dating back to the late 1800s. The term was chosen to counter Charles Darwin's popular and revolutionary work, The Origin of Species.

In the United States creationism often refers to an organized philosophy by Christian fundamentalists which they intend to use as the primary, or supplemental, curriculum for schools to teach.

For the last 2000 years, "creationism" in its basic form has been the mainstream understanding, in both Judaism and Christianity, of how the Earth and mankind were created. These interpretations were a product of their era, and pre-scientific understanding tended to dominate all aspects of culture before the time a scientific understanding took hold toward the end of the 18th century.

-- Miguel

From a Biblecentric POV, Creationism is based on the Bible

<<Creationism is the belief, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible (Genesis), that God created the universe and all life within it, especially mankind. In this sense, creationism has its origin in the Hebrew Bible and classical Judaism, and was adopted early on in Christianity.>>

Those statements follow the definitions in several very Biblecentric dictionaries. To say that the "belief that God created the universe" is based on Genesis is one interesting POV. But that Biblecentric POV is as ridiculous as saying that "law" is based on the Ten Commandments. Some creationism is based on the Bible. And some is not--according to the various scholars that spend much of their time with such matters.

In any case, we should not be deciding one POV versus another. We should record the varieties of POVs and the way that they have evolved in history--and ascribe the various POVs to the generous men who invented those different POVs. Rednblu 01:39, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

According to Webster's New World Dictionary:

crea*tion*ism n. Theol. 1. the doctrine that God creates a new soul for every human being born: opposed to TRANSDUCIANISM 2. the doctrine that ascribes the origin of matter, species, etc. to acts of creation by God

creation science a theory, concerning the origin of the universe, which states that the literal biblical account of creation can be scientifically verified: essentially rejects Darwinism and much of modern scientific thought, esp. in biology and geology

-- NetEsq 04:25, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes. Exactly--just for starters. I don't have my OED right here. But the Catholic Church has used those two definitions for "creationism" since before the 1700s. And around 1860, in responding to Darwin, some theologians invented a third definition for creationism which was opposed to Darwinian "transformism;" in the new third definition for creationism, certain Church fathers asserted that God created each species by his own "hand." [2] Darwinian "transformism" was interpreted by the Church fathers as theorizing that the chimpanzees speciated into humans spontaneously by the mere steady influence of God's natural loving laws. We could make a good NPOV Creationism page! But it is like the Inquisition; we have to do it by stealth of night--and in secret right-to-left writing. How about we just append a Creationism section to Theology? The deleted don't read the Theology page. I think I just **got** your suggestion. Good night! Rednblu 05:17, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Luckily my university has an institutional subscription to OED online. Here it is:

Creationism A system or theory of creation: spec. a. The theory that God immediately creates a soul for every human being born (opposed to traducianism); b. The theory which attributes the origin of matter, the different species of animals and plants, etc., to `special creation' (opposed to evolutionism).

-- Miguel

No "Church father" could possibly have had an opinion about Darwinism, as they had all been dead for centuries before Darwin was born. Get a grip. -- Someone else 05:41, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Are you sure about that? I can see two Church fathers right outside my window and I assure that they are very much alive right here in the Twenty First Century and probably beyond. Rednblu 06:39, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Quite certain. "Church Father" is not synonymous with "priest". -- Someone else 07:14, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the term Church father refers to someone who is generally accepted as an authority on the teachings and practices of the Christian church. In other words, while there may in fact be Church fathers alive today, the term Church father is generally used to refer to men and women who have been dead for quite some time, such as Saint Augustine. -- NetEsq 07:09, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

So nobody will let me call the padres who in 1860 or thereabouts created the doctrinal distinction that the Church followed therafter some "church fathers"? Ok. Let's call them Church padres? Rednblu 07:38, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Let's Stop Bickering

Bickering -> Wikipedia:Community case RK

"Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,?with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that the genes of E. coli contain over a trillion (1012) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. He also reported on his extensive investigations into genetic data on hemoglobin (red blood cells). " [3]

So I have a question. Should Murray Eden's argument even appear on a NPOV Creationism page? That is, is Murray Eden's argument germane to Creationism? Rednblu 21:20, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

These mathematical calculations have been proven wrong. The Talk.Origins FAQ has an essay entitled Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations which explains the error:

Every so often, someone comes up with the statement "the formation of any enzyme by chance is nearly impossible, therefore abiogenesis is impossible". Often they cite an impressive looking calculation from the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle, or trot out something called "Borel's Law" to prove that life is statistically impossible. These people, including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors:

1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern" protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all.

2) They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed sequences for each protein, that are required for life.

3) They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than simultaneous trials.

4) They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation.

5) They seriously underestimate the number of functional enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences.

I will try and walk people through these various errors, and show why it is not possible to do a "probability of abiogenesis" calculation in any meaningful way....(rest of essay on the following webpage)

Read the rest of this essay here

Isn't "public schools" a bit ambiguitous in UK/English ? Ericd 23:36, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Proposed disambiguation notice

I suggest replacing the first paragraph of the article with a disambiguation notice based on the Webster's 10th edition and OED definitions above, along the lines of:

Creationism refers to a belief in creation by a divine agency, primarily:

• • the belief that the human soul is created by a divine agency (opposed to traducianism); and
  • the belief attributing the origin of matter, life, and the various living species to special creation by a divine agency (opposed among others to Darwinism).

This article develops the second meaning, for the first see creationism (theology).

I use divine agency to avoid the culturally biased term God. By the way, the article creationism (theology) should not redirect here, the previous content should be restored, and a similar dismbiguation notice added. Any comments? -- Miguel

Thanks, Miguel. I think we're getting on the right track now. Eloquence, Paul, RK, and (okay, let's include "victim" :) NetEsq -- what d'yall think? --Uncle Ed 21:51, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thank you, Miguel. As I stated previously, NPOV disputes can most effectively be resolved by the passage of time and (more importantly) through the involvement of more Wikipedians, such as yourself. Please note that I am parroting this verbage from another Wikipedian who goes by the alias Eclecticology. It is a mantra I have come to value highly.

The course of action that you are proposing will put us more or less where we were a few weeks ago, but it would definitely be a step in the right direction. Ideally, the present article would discuss all flavors of creationism, including those flavors promoted by theologians who do not seek to impeach the scientific validity of the theory of evolution. If this is done properly, I believe that the need for an article entitled creation science will become self-apparent. -- NetEsq 22:19, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Good KRS 01:55, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thank you, Miguel. We may be an unruly crew, but we will follow you if you let us stick to what people have actually said. And I would like to see a section for each POV--not my POV or the writers' POVs, but the POVs of published scholars and activists--that gives each POV a clear and concise summary. Then we could have a set of sections at the end that summarize the controversies of POVn versus POVm. Just ideas. Count me in. I like the divine agency substitution. Rednblu 00:57, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Follow me? No, no! -- Miguel

How to go about changing the page

However, if I might suggest, could we develop this very different kind of page somewhere else like in the UserSpace so that it would not have the appearance of Us winning against Them. At the end we could have something to compare with the current Creationism page and everybody could vote on their preference. Maybe? Rednblu 01:02, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I beg you pardon? Who is us and who is them? And which side am I supposed to be on? :-)

IMHO it is better to agree on a "reference version" that we can revert to if we later decide all our work just made the page worse. Say, at any point we may agree to revert to the last version before my proposed opening paragraph is implemented. This is better than an alternate page because the edit history of the attempt would be documented in the article's history. Hopefully this won't be necessary, though. -- Miguel Sat Aug 23 13:12 UTC 2003

--

<<:I beg your pardon? Who is us and who is them? And which side am I supposed to be on? :-)>>

Well, I am acknowledging that you received three thank yous from some people who have used some harsh words in denouncing what certain very smart and very eloquent people people have done in keeping the Creationism page locked into its current look, format, and content. In my opinion, all of us, whether for or against the current Creationism page have a goal of making the Creationism page better. I would say that you are on the side of making the Creationism page better.

<<IMHO it is better to agree on a "reference version" that we can revert to if we later decide all our work just made the page worse. Say, at any point we may agree to revert to the last version before my proposed opening paragraph is implemented. This is better than an alternate page because the edit history of the attempt would be documented in the article's history. Hopefully this won't be necessary, though.>>

I can see the advantages of agreeing on a "reference version"--now that you point them out. All of the UserTalk comments would be in one place automatically. How about this for a plan? We start with the agreement on a "reference version" as you suggested. And if an edit war starts, we then move the page development to somewhere else such as a UserSpace. Just an idea. Let's not give up on developing a better Creationism page just because an edit war starts over the Creationism page. I would hate to see so much intellectual promise go to waste just because of this genetic hunger to defend the territory that all of us men inherited from the ancestors of the chimpanzees. ;)) Rednblu 15:29, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I decided to boldly go and update the pages as per my suggestion. Hopefully an edit war won't ensue.

The reference version to revert to should an edit war occur is 03:43, 2003 Aug 23 . . Robert Merkel.

I hope we can all agree to this.

-- Miguel Sat Aug 23 16:00 UTC 2003

One more general comment about the procedure. I suspect that, as the page is revised from top to bottom, inconsistencies or redundancies may arise. I suggest that allowing redundancy is good, and that material from further down in the page can be copied into the newly rewritten section, and changed in the section being rewritten if necessary. Inconsistencies requiring only minor modifications can be repaired immediately, but for major modifications I suggest discussing them here first. As the rewrite progresses, we will eventually get to everything. -- Miguel

How about let's work ideas for the Introduction here on the Talk page. Then when we have what we think is a good idea, one of us will integrate the idea we have developed here with the text in the current Introduction, making sure that the worthy comments from the past end up on some page here in Wikipedia. Any ideas? Rednblu 16:02, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have made an edit to the introduction to the page. Describing pre-scientific creationist beliefs as a "product of their era" seems insulting to modern-day creationists. Just because it's an old idea doesn't in itself make it wrong --Robert Merkel 07:39, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Creationism as a theological topic

With the reinstatement of the article at creationism (theology), I was able to recapitulate some public domain material there that should help flesh out the topic of creationism in the context of theology. I invite all interested parties to review and/or mercilessly edit the material that I have added to that article before I attempt to add more. -- NetEsq 20:58, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

There's some redundancy with creation beliefs now. Could you fix that?—Eloquence 19:49, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)

Developing this page and related pages

I would suggest the following structure:

• Creationism will be primarily used used to discuss the following:
  • history of the anti-Darwinian creationist movement (as per the "origin of the universe/life/everything" definition of creationism)
  • arguments that creationists by that definition are using now, or have used, to make their cause that
    • evolution is flawed
    • creationism is a consistent and sufficient model to explain our origins
  • responses to these arguments
• Creation beliefs will be used to described detailed theological models that have been put forward by different religions to explain our origins
• Creationism (theology) or perhaps, better, Creationism (soul), will be used to develop the doctrine concerning the origin of the soul. If we use Creationism (soul), we can redirect Creationism (theology) to Creation beliefs.

Concerning the matter of non-Christian creationists in the anti-Darwin sense, I think these should not be excluded from the creationism article.

Concerning the question of whether the discussion of the evolution arguments, the arguments against or for creationism, or any other part of the current creationism page should be moved away, I propose the general rule that if any of these sections dominates the article and the maximum article size of 32K is exceeded, this section is briefly summarized, with a link to a more extensive discussion in a separate article.

Concerning the recently added disambiguation intro, I have no strong objections to it, but it may place too much emphasis on a specific Catholic doctrine that is of little relevance to the majority of our readers. Perhaps it would be better to highlight the page creation beliefs prominently in the intro and to have a less prominent disambiguation notice for creationism (soul) in the head of the page. Does this sound like a fair and reasonable proposal to the participants? —Eloquence 20:01, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. RK 02:15, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, think that arguments that evolution is flawed belong in the article Evolution, but arguments that Creationism is sufficient to explain origins belong here. Note that Creationists not only have issues with Darwinism, but with the Standard Model of Cosmology, Astrophysical theories on the origin of the Solar System and with Geological theories of the origin of the Earth. This needs to be mentioned on this page, but the specific critique of each of these theories belongs in the page on that theory. Similarly, the "responses to these arguments" have two parts: defence of the merits of evolution (belongs in evolution) and criticism of Creationism (belong here). Miguel

That would be a bad idea. The article on evolution is an article on science, and should only include scientific points for and against how evolution is understood. It can refer to the religious disputations and link to this article, of course, but that is the extent of it. The arguments made against evolution and physics by fundamentalist Christians do not belong in a science article! Fundamentalists (in Judaism as well) disagree with much of science, genetics, evolution, biology, astronomy, chemistry, etc. However, we shouldn't go around putting in Christian (and/or Jewish, Muslim) "rebuttals" to science in all of these articles, or even in one of them. Those are not science issues. These are purely religious issues. Otherwsie, we will have to rewrite almost every one our science articles to explain why Chrisitians, Muslims, etc. all disagee. RK 21:14, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

What I mean to say is that neither this page nor the avolution page are the proper place for the debate between creationism and evolution. I wonder whether wikipedia should even contain such a debate. The creationism and evolution pages should describe each paradigm and criticisms of it.

If by "religious rebuttals" you mean something like creationists dispute this theory on the basis that it contradicts scripture, I don't think it's out of place. Just like saying that modern geology is incolpatible with a 6000-year-old Earth. But of course, nothing more than a passing remark is appropriate.

Notice that some of the "arguments against evolution" in this article are disputing the validity of dating techniques, and the interpretation of fossils data and geological strata. In so far as those arguments are scientific, they belong in the appropriate science pages.

I don't really want to commit one way or the other. Let's wait until the editing of this page has progressed. -- Miguel

--

* Creationism will be primarily used to discuss the following: ** history of the anti-Darwinian creationist movement (as per the "origin of the universe/life/everything" definition of creationism)

I have no objection to Creationism being devoted entirely to the Creationism versus evolutionism debate--if that focus of the Creationism page resembled the reality of history and the reality of creationism today. But in my opinion, the Creationism versus evolutionism debate comprises less than half of what creationism is today. Furthermore the Creationism versus evolutionism debate comprised zero percent of what creationism was before 1850.

What are you talking about? What do you mean "less than half". In the USA, Australia and Europe, among English speakers the term "creationism" refers to the attempt to battle science based on a religious reading of the Biblical book of Genesis. You keep using a definition of the word "creationism" that no other English speakers use. RK 21:14, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Accordingly, it seems to me that your proposal that the Creationism page be primarily used to discuss the Creationism versus evolutionism debate is as unfair and unreasonable as proposing that the Communism page be primarily used to discuss the Communism versus capitalism debate. That is, the Communism versus capitalism debate is less than half of what communism has ever been about. I spend the time to voice my opinion here because, in my opinion, there are many people here who, for different reasons, think that your proposal for the Creationism page is unfair and unreasonable. Since I think they are right, I spend the time to say that.

No, it is not unfair. You keep trying to convince everyone to rewrite the dictionary to make this article focus on your own pet topics. The funny thing is that no one is preventing you from writing on those topics, in the appropriate articles. You do have intellectual freedom, just not the authority to rewrite the dictionary. RK 21:14, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

For all of the above reasons, I vote against the Creationism portion of your proposal.

<<* Creation beliefs will be used to describe detailed theological models that have been put forward by different religions to explain our origins.>>

I do not see why you think that theological models would be a significant portion of the Creation beliefs page. I can cite you to any number of anthropology scholars who would list at least five varieties of creation beliefs, only one of which involves theological models. After all, from a NPOV, the Big Bang theory, even if throughly documented as scientifically true, would still be a creation belief for anyone who thought the Big Bang theory is correct in describing what happened to create the current physical universe. However, in my opinion, there are not many Wikipedians who are expressing an objection to your proposal for the Creation beliefs page.

Thus, for all of the above reasons, though I think your proposal for the Creation beliefs is unfair and unreasonable, I will abstain from voting against your proposal for the Creation beliefs page at this time. In my opinion, that is what the Creation beliefs page is right now.

<<* Creationism (theology) or perhaps, better, Creationism (soul), will be used to develop the doctrine concerning the origin of the soul. If we use Creationism (soul), we can redirect Creationism (theology) to Creation beliefs.>>

In my opinion, creationism is all theology. The soul part of creationism is a minor part of the theology of creationism. So, at least, the Creationism (theology) page should describe that part of creationism that has nothing to do with the Creationism versus evolutionism debate. For example, at least, the Creationism (theology) page should describe Plato's Timeaus theory that the Demiurge created the universe from the eternal archetype of the Good--which Platonic theory certainly has nothing to do with the Creationism versus evolutionism debate. And, in my opinion, there are many, many Wikipedians who think that your proposal for the Creationism (theology) page is unfair and unreasonable. Thus, for all of the above reasons, I vote against your proposal for the Creationism (theology) page. Rednblu 02:23, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You keep referring to the "many Wikipedians" who support you, but I don't see them. RK 21:14, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's one of the oldest tricks in the rhetorical books. Or maybe Rednblu has just learned from Rush Limbaugh. ;-) What you are missing, Red, is that the definition of creationism simply does not include the particular beliefs of creationists. The page, if edited according to your ideas, would look more and more like creation beliefs, which is very removed from what the word creationism means. Even NetEsq has cited only one additional definition, namely that of creationism in the context of souls, which is now prominently linked in the article. Platonic theory is not a variant of creationism according to any definition, it is a particular creation belief and as such should be discussed in the article about creation beliefs. The reason you are met with such resistance is not that you want to "create a neutral article about creationism" as you claim, it is that you want to change the definition of it to match your own idiosyncracies. —Eloquence

On this particular confrontation between us, Elo, I refuse to respond to the inaccuracies in the above paragraph until you take out your rhetorical tricks in that paragraph to imply that the issue is "Red's" problem. Rednblu 17:04, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

---

23:08, 25 Aug 2003 . . Rei (Reverted: Jecar, the goal is to *remove* POV, not to add it.) My full apologies if I have done something wrong but I fail to see how the removal of a duplicated word could in any way be perceived as adding "POV". Jecar.

No, my apologies to you. I accidentally had clicked on the diff to RK's edit to his post on on Talk:Creationism instead of your edit to Creationism. My fault. It would, of course, explain why my revision did nothing. Sorry there for inadvertently slandering you! And of course, RK is free to use any sort of bias he wants on the talk page, I was just thinking that it happened on the article page because of my mis-click. Rei 01:10, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

On what page should the Creationism versus evolutionism debate go?

The article on evolution is an article on science, and should only include scientific points for and against how evolution is understood.

Perhaps an article on a religious belief should only include religious points for and against that belief? Arguments from scripture and such? There is the belief in that the world was created as described in Genesis. That's a religious belief. Then there is the purported science, that attempts (and fails, I believe) to give a scientific grounding to that religious belief.

I propose having one article on Creationism for the Genesis-based creation myth, and another article on creation science. The term "creation science" is well used (63,000 hits), and unambiguously refers to the purported science. Then we add in creationism (soul) for the Catholics, creation belief for a general overview of creation myths around the world.Martin 10:13, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Religious arguments for a literal interpretation can be included in the article as is. The kind of arguments that should be moved to creation beliefs are the ones that detail the creation story as given in the Bible. The term "creation science" is perceived as an oxymoron by many in the anti-creationist movement, so choosing it as a title would not be neutral.—Eloquence 12:19, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

I understand that some proponents of the theory of evolution consider "creation science" to be misleading. Similarly, some proponents of Holocaust revisionism consider "Holocaust denial" to be misleading. These concerns should be taken into account, but they are not the whole story. However, given your objection I take back my specific suggestion with respect to titles. Martin 12:57, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It is in the nature of ideas that the first people to describe them well generally get to pick what they are called. So while "creation science" may not be an excellent description of the set of views that are generally called "creation science," it is nonetheless what that set of views is most commonly called. What other, widely-used term would you consider for that body of belief which purports that the Genesis 1 account is (a) literally true, and (b) scientifically demonstrable, as opposed to that body of belief which holds that it is (a) (literally or otherwise) true, and (b) not a topic of scientific inquiry. User:Shimmin <<Attribution added by User:Rednblu following the PageHistory.>>

Its best to have a disambiguation page as for 'English'. I brought this issue for discussion in a general sense in the village pump- referring to cases such as calculus, Tajmahal, architecture etc., But the solution suggested- to qualify every meaning in a bracket- seemed to me inadequate. After this there was not much reaction, probably because I am a newbie:-)

Here the primary tussle is which meaning is more important than the other or is the 'first among equals'. This cannot be resolved by any discussion, each person[especially two] thinks his POV is correct. It is therefore best to have a very short creationsim disambiguation page which will redirect to creationism[creation science] and creationism [theology]---KRS 14:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why not have two sections which cite examples/ proof so that other participants who are not active but like to have a say in the final NPOV :-) get more knowledge on this. Some of this exists, but it can be organised like in a vote. Each one can cite their sources, so that the dubiousness of Internet- related info can be verified by everyone interestedKRS 14:08, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

An important point which seems to be missing in many such cases[ actually only one I know of till now-a small part of the tussle of New imperialism was due to this]is the etymology. All this debate can be resolved when while creating a page with a predominant meaning, one brings out at first its etymology. Then the redirect can go to the historical meaning from the etymology. Thus justice is done both the current meaning and the historical meaning KRS 14:16, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Proposal: The Creationism versus evolutionism debate should go on a new Creation science page

<<The term "creation science" is perceived as an oxymoron by many in the anti-creationist movement, so choosing it as a title would not be neutral.>>

That is a blatant illogical point-of-view. A neutral point of view might be: If term T is defined in two standard English dictionaries, then it would be neutral to choose the term T for the title of an article in Wikipedia. Rednblu 17:17, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The simple fact which you continue to ignore is that there is a much more neutral and acceptable term: creationism -- a term used by encyclopedias and dictionaries in the sense in which we use it. Your use of this term is idiosyncratic.—Eloquence 17:21, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

Idiosyncratic? Do you mean "peculiar to those who believe in creationism"? If so, then you are right. I am using the term as most creationists use the term creationism: "Creationism is the belief in creation by a divine agency."

If you want an example of how creationists use the term "creationism" to refer to the theology that the creationists think sinners have fought against since at least 250 B.C. then check this link. On the other hand, if you want to continue denying reality, then you may do that also. Unlike Martin, I have no interest in being nice to you or being diplomatic. So I will continue to tell you that you are wrong if I think that you are wrong. And I can trust you to respond in kind. Rednblu 17:51, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Now I understand why you want to rewrite the creationism article so badly -- you want it to be in direct contrast to the article atomism which you wrote, just like Bergman puts the two historical ideologies in contrast to one another. While this is an interesting philosophical perspective, it does not reflect mainstream usage of the term creationism as my citations have demonstrated. So please don't be surprised if you run into walls when you try to fit the article structure of Wikipedia into your personal philosophical model.—Eloquence 18:13, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

The above inaccurate paragraph contains too many rhetorical tricks of avoiding the issue by dissecting the messenger. Rednblu 18:32, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The case for having a creation science page separate from that of creationism is similar to the case for having a Libertarian Party separate from that of libertarianism. (Not a perfect analogy, but close...) Libertarian socialists in particular might even find the term "Libertarian party" both misleading and an oxymoron, but it is nonetheless the most commonly used term to describe that political organization. Shimmin 12:47, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Looking for consensus on the Introduction

While the debate rages above this header, let's try to get something positive out of it by working on the Introduction. It would be productive to focus the discussion on what this section should say. Here's the current version. -- Miguel

In the Western world, Creationism often refers to the belief, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible (Genesis), that God created the universe and all life within it, especially mankind. In this restricted sense, creationism has its origin in the Hebrew Bible and classical Judaism, and was adopted early on in Christianity.

Using the term creationism in this sense is relatively recent, dating back to the late 1800s. The term was chosen to counter Charles Darwin's popular and revolutionary work, The Origin of Species, which presented an alternative and widely accepted explanation, evolution, for the origin of human life. For the previous 2000 years, "creationism" in its basic form had been the mainstream understanding, in both Judaism and Christianity, of how the Earth and mankind were created.

In the United States creationism often refers to an organized philosophy by Christian fundamentalists which they intend to use as the primary, or supplemental, curriculum for schools to teach.

I would personally subscribe to this introduction in its entirety, and I think so would Eloquence (because he wrote it?). It seems that NetEsq, Rednblu and RK have serious issues with it, and it would be great if they proposed specific additions, subtractions or modifications here. I can't quite figure out where Ed stands on this one (but that's a statement about me, not about him). I apologize if I missed anyone.

IMHO, we should strive to quickly agree on a final form for this introduction. The point is that anything that, once we agree to an introduction, any remaining material which is inconsistent with the introduction will have to be moved to another page! (The introduction can be changed later if the need arises, of course) This will help focus the discussion of the relation of this page to other pages. -- Miguel

The problem with this introduction is that most "creationists" do not subscribe to "literal" interpretation of Genesis. Neither has "evolution" nor yet even "Darwinism" always been considered an explanatory alternative to "creationism". Augustine, for one example, defined "creation" as evolution (development orformation subsequent to the grant of mere existance). Aquinas rejected this idiosyncratic definition, but he did not reject development. Although special creation of species has always had variant forms, and is by far the most representative view of Christian believers, this is not necessarily tied to "literal interpretation". As the article says, "creationism is a spectrum" (and this intro appears to me to contradict this important observation). The whole debate is much older, and much more intricate and subtle (and consequently, too boring for those only casually interested) than can probably be represented in one article, let alone in one introduction. Mkmcconn 20:31, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Could you propose an alternative introduction instead of pointing out what's wrong with the current one? I understand what you're saying, I just don't know how to put it in the article. You may need to propose a change to the disambiguation notice, too! (see below)

From reading this and the creationism (theology) talk pages, it seems to me we have reached an impasse. One way out might be to find a better name for the anti-Darwinist biblical-literalist creationism movement which is mainly confined to the US and wants to take over the science curriculum (maybe this is a little too narrow, though) Do you advocate an article on special creation?

We need a good disambiguation page to help the casually interested reader find the article they want, and also so that everyone involved in this discussion can add content to a real page they are happy about instead of to the talk page of something they are unhappy about. So, the question is, creationism (what)?

It seems that Eloquence is responsible for a large part of the current content, so it would be important to know what he thinks a good alternative title for this page would be, if any. -- Miguel

I appreciate the frustration. I didn't mean to be critical; only, to advise against your suggested approach to the introduction, and to commend the approach currently taken, as being relatively better. My opinion has been that, it will work out best if we work on eliminating internal contradictions and redundancy, preferring those edits which integrate well in the existing structure. I think that the present structure has proven durable, for incorporating new material and expanding the scope, without further sacrifice of clarity. Mkmcconn 21:26, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Let me just say that I am, and have always been, perfectly willing to strive for compromise concerning the structure of the article. I, NetEsq, Mkmcconn and others arrived at the present compromise a few weeks ago in mutual consensus. It is only then that Rednblu joined the debate and tried to alter the structure so he can create an article about creationism that philosophically matches the article on atomism he has written. Nobody else has had any complaints about the structure at this point.

Since then, Rednblu has been tirelessly campaigning against "evolutionist censors", worked on unnecessary page forks and wasted everyone's time. Even NetEsq's main complain, as I understand it, was simply that the original theological meaning of creationism concerning the origin of souls was not given proper attention. It is only Rednblu who wants to fundamentally restructure the relevant pages, not to adopt the pages to the modern and traditional meanings of the word creationism, but to make them reflect his personal philosophical interpretation thereof.

Rednblu has been entirely unwilling to work for compromise and insisted on his preferred structure so far, while everyone else in the debate has worked to achieve consensus. His major contribution to the debate is to try to create "factions" who attack each other. He is trying to seed the kind of mistrust and paranoia that he needs to establish his point of view.

At this point, I think the most reasonable course of action for all concerned parties would be to ignore Rednblu and to simply carry on improving both the structure and content of the relevant articles. Don't play his game.—Eloquence 21:08, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

I have to say I am getting tired of playing the game. Unless you are misrepresenting other people's opinions, all that is left is for Rednblu to give a specific proposal as to what the introduction should look like. -- Miguel

Personally, I think it's more important to fill in the details at places like Young Earth Creationism and panspermia. Also, rather easier... :) Martin 23:17, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

One question. Wouldn't it make more sense to define creationism at wiktionary:creationism? Is there a place on wiktionary for wikipedians to say "we're having a semantic dispute here - help!"? Martin 23:19, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC) I think we all agree that creation beliefs is for religous dogma, with no rebuttals. (Those 'crazy religious people' believe some astonishing things, ain't it a hoot? one might say.)

An article on creationism might focus on the Christian (esp. Anglo-American) assertion that God created the world AND the living creatures AND people, in contradiction to the evolutionist view. Whether or not this needs rebuttal is still an open question at Wikipedia as of late August 2003.

I believe that creation science or scientific creationism is the school of thought which:

• asserts that Creationism is true
• claims that geology and biology PROVE that Creationism is true
• wishes American public schools would give as much time to Creationism as to theories of Evolution, in science classes.

Summing up, I daresay that we contributors

1. have no problems with the creation beliefs article.
2. still are unsure how much rebuttal and so forth should go into the creationism article
3. might consider moving some of battle between creationists vs. evolutionists to creation science.

--Uncle Ed 13:55, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Specific proposal as to what the introduction should look like

I offer the following as an attempt to develop consensus on what the beginning and Introduction of the Creationism page might be.

I have cut out specific authors, such as [Author1]¸ and specific quotes, such as [Assertion1], to assist those who reject specific authors as being "creationist," for whatever reason. Fill in your own sources and quotes!

I suggest we edit this beginning and introduction between the container marks here on this TalkPage to minimize edit wars. Let's see what we have. Rednblu 21:04, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

**Specific proposal container Beginning**

Creationism refers to a religious belief in creation by a divine agency, primarily:

• the belief that the human soul is created by a divine agency - see creationism (theology)
• the spectrum of beliefs attributing the origin of the universe, life, and humanity to creation by a divine agency.

This article discusses the second meaning.

For the various stories of how creation happened, see Creation beliefs.

For an exposition of the conflicts of creationism with science, see Creation science.

This article is specifically about the various creationism outlooks on theology and the duty that people owe to the divine agency that created them.

Introduction: The broad spectrum of creationism

Creationism, attributing the origin of the universe to creation by a divine agency, is at least as old as the writings of [Author1] in [YY1] BC and [Author2] in [YY2] BC. Creationist scholars differ widely in characterizing the role of the divine agency in the affairs of this earth. Some creationists, such as [Author3], assert that the divine agency hears their daily prayer and will intercede in daily events to make things turn out right. Other creationists, such as [Author4], assert that the divine agency created the universe many aeons ago and has not intervened in events since that initial creation.

There are creationist scholars that follow many different religious beliefs, including Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, [Religion1], Christianity, and many others. Some creationists, such as [Author5], are highly critical of all organized religions and make assertions like [Assertion1] and [Assertion2]. And across that broad spectrum of religious beliefs, creationists over the centuries have developed many different views of theology and of the duty that people owe to the divine agency that created the universe and created them at least by starting the forces that gave them birth.

**Specific proposal container End**

While this all looks interesting for some kind of symposium on a "creator" somehow vaguely defined, it's really a meta-wikipedia discussion. It doesn't have much to do with "creationism" as that term is usually used, does it? Mkmcconn 21:25, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Exactly. Creationism, the view that a divine agency created the universe - this is your definition of creationism, Rednblu, and it is not the common definition of creationism in dictionaries and encyclopedias. Britannica, for example, calls creationism a "counterevolutionary, fundamentalist theory or doctrine that postulates that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing", and Columbia calls it the "belief in the biblical account of the creation of the world as described in Genesis, a characteristic especially of fundamentalist Protestantism (see fundamentalism)." Dictionary citations can be found in the archives or via onelook.com. As long as you refuse to acknowledge the mainstream definition of creationism and try to push your own agenda, you can't expect us to cooperate with you.—Eloquence 21:29, Aug 27, 2003 (UTC)

If someone wants to talk about nonchristian views on creation, I don't have a problem with that. That's why I proposed the definition I did (based on the OED, basically). There's nothing wrong with choosing the dictionary definition that is broadest, especially if it makes more people comfortable. It seemed at one point that everyone (including Rednblu) was ok with the disambiguation notice, but now he's proposing a fundamental change of focus that I disagree with. -- Miguel

First, when and why did special creation get dropped in favour of creation in the definition?

Second, Rednblu wants this article to discuss ethics (for lack of a better name), which I find amazing.

Third, I don't see why the essence of the broad spectrum paragraph cannot be incorporated into the current introduction. However, Rednblu makes no attempt to salvage any of the current content.

IMHO, "Duties towards your favourite kind of god" are irrelevant to this article.

-- Miguel

I changed "special creation" to "creation", because:

1. It's not clear what it means - looks like jargon to me.
2. Dictionaries don't use that term, as far as I can tell.

hth. :) Martin

"Special creation" might be useful jargon, because it was often used in the 19th century by some evolutionary creationists, where they believed that a divine act of intervention could be inferred at specific places in the evolutionary chain. It is still used in this way to distinguish a creationist explanation at any particular point where a naturalistic explanation might be offered instead: as, for example, the special creation of the human soul, or the special creation of the first Man. Mkmcconn 00:31, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Constructing an Introduction to Creationism

<<Second, Rednblu wants this article to discuss ethics (for lack of a better name), which I find amazing. >>

I assume you refer to the "theology and duty to . . . ." sections. That repeated phrase is merely a place holder suggesting some feature by which the encyclopedia page would classify the different creationisms in the broad spectrum. What would you suggest as the distinguishing feature of the creationisms within the broad spectrum?

<<Third, I don't see why the essence of the broad spectrum paragraph cannot be incorporated into the current introduction. However, Rednblu makes no attempt to salvage any of the current content.>>

The assumption with the above construction was that the creationism versus evolutionism debate would be disabiguated to the creation science page where all of the current content would be applicable essentially as is.

But that assumption is not shared by most people involved in this page, or is it?

Now, I see a difference between creationism and creation science, whih I'll go on to explain.

Creationism is an answer to the problem of origins. As I have pointed out before, literal interpretations of sacred texts (I dare say from any religion) are incompatible with at least one of: 1) The standard cosmological model; 2) Astrophysical theories on the origin of the solar system; 3) Modern geology's account of the history of Earth; 4) Accepted biological theories on the origin of life; 5) Evolution by natural selection; 6) Materialistic theories of consciousness. That's fine and dandy, it's just an alternative explanation of how the things we see came to be the way they are, it's just that I don't agree with it, but hey! Anyway, that's what should be in the creationism article.

Creation Science, on the other hand, is the attempt by the biblical literalists to prove that creationism is a better scientific theory that any of its competitors in (at least) any of the 6 areas mentioned above. That's what should be in the creation science article.

Since these people put scripture before any experimental evidence, IMHO creation science is doomed to failure. The reason I say this is that, back in the 19th century, everybody (including Darwin) could be described as a creation scientist (if we allow ourselves to be anachronistic), and they came around.

Finally, there is no reason to have a page on the debate between creationism and evolution. Creationism should be described on its own merits, creation science should be described on its own merits, and evolution should be described on its own merits. An encyclopedia is no place for an actual debate, although the fact that creation scientists keep trying to keep the debate alive, make it prominent in the media, and fight for "equal time" in public schools in the US, should be mentioned.

-- Miguel

That is, if you take the OED definition seriously, then it seems to me that this page is not about creationism. Perhaps the current Creationism page is about the clash between creationism and evolutionism. Rednblu 01:05, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am not disputing that some of the content here may be determined to fit better elsewhere when we get to it, but your proposal for the actual Introduction seems (to me) not to go in the direction of developing that definition, but of sidetracking it. -- Miguel

As Britannica correctly states, creationism is at its core a counterevolutionary movement. Now I am completely open to discussing non-Christian variants of that movement, but belief in divine creation as such is not the only defining feature of creationism.—Eloquence 01:58, Aug 28, 2003 (UTC)

--

<<As Britannica correctly states, creationism is at its core a counterevolutionary movement.>>

I am beginning to comprehend the POV from which you edit the Creationism page. Let me see if I have it straight. Your POV seems to comprise the following assertions:

1) Because by one dictionary the term creationism was first used in 1860, only those beliefs fitting the definition of creationism in use after 1860 are to be considered as examples of creationism.

2) Since the term creationism was first used in 1860 and since the term creationism is used by [those holding some POVs] to describe a counterevolutionary movement in the United States, then it is inappropriate on the Creationism page to describe the pre-Darwinian historical world-wide religious thought that gave rise to what [those holding some POVs] call a "counterevolutionary movement."

Feel free to edit the above text to describe your POV. And feel free to insert what you think is the correct terms for [those holding some POVs] in the above. I do not object to your POV or to the POVs of [those holding some POVs]. And I have no interest in shifting POVs or altering them. I am curious to see what your POV is.

Furthermore, fixing the Creationism page will go much faster if we all know the POVs of the writers and editors of the Creationism page. Rednblu 17:15, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Sense in which an intepretation is "Literal"

The current intro says, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible (Genesis). The word, "literal", has baggage that the article has difficulty sustaining from the start to the end. Mkmcconn \

Or, does it? I'm sorry to throw this twist in; on the other hand, there is ambiguity that I would like cleared up:

1. "strict adherence to the letter", "unimaginative" and "ordinary sense of the words" reading is important to some Creationists - they call this "literal interpretation".
2. "Creationists believe that the Bible teaches that God literally exists and is literally the cause of the existence of other things". Without regard to how imaginative their interpretation actually is, they understand the Bible to be reflective of historical fact, at least insofar as it describes God as the origin of things.

Which sense of "literal" is being chosen, 1, or 2? Mkmcconn 00:31, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

All I have to say is that I'm glad you are getting involved in this discussion. -- Miguel

Strangely enough for a religious believer, I find myself more allied with Eloquence on the issue of what "creationism" should be defined as. I think that in the last 100 years, creationism has come to carry the connotation of Bible-based Christianity, specifically Anglo-American, Protestant and even fundamentalist.

Precisely. But the history of how it came to acquire that meaning, and a discussion of earlier meanings of the word and creationism in other cultures is appropriate here. -- Miguel

How we distinguish this current of thought from other religious views about Creation is an open question.

But there is a school of thought which has been battling the evolutionists (mostly in America) for many decades now, and what they believe in is possibly best identified as Creationism. I'm suggesting that religious beliefs that are not in a fight with evolutionists could be relegated to the creation beliefs article.

By the way, it might be interesting for our readers to distinguish between the ex nihilo or "out of nothing" variant of Creation dogma, and other religious views of Creation. Unfortunately, the only creation doctrine I know well is Unificationism, which denies ex nihilo (where God got the matter or energy is another story -- best put in creation beliefs, eh?). --Uncle Ed 13:13, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

On recent changes after the intro

I was just following the changes in intro till now, but today I happened to notice that there has been a major change in the body of the article for quite some time[ a few days?]- I think not by anyone who has been active in the Talk page. Wasn't there a discussion on what should come in creation beliefs and what should come in creationism?But now there is a lot of info on Creation beliefs such as Flat earth and Geocentrism. I am getting even more confused now. Are we including scientific beliefs/ theories also? I don't think we should. Then I would again like to bring in my Hindu angle:-)Just because in earlier times- such as the so-called Medieval ages-religion and science were intertwined, doesn't mean that scientific theories with limited knowledge of the universe should be confused as religious beliefs. In that case, before Copernicus' contribution or Galileo's famous quote-'It still moves', there is authentic evidence that the Indian scientist Aryabhatta had propounded a helio-centric theory, and most Indians know about it.But we w[c]ouldn't call it the Hindu theory of creation w[c]ould we? I am sure that there were some people in this discussion who didn't want creation beliefs discussed here, but now we seem to have that as well as scientific theories.KRS 13:26, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I don't see that there's a "lot of info" on Flat Earthers. They're just placed on one end of a spectrum. Martin

Whether it is a little or a lot it does not fit here- even one is a lot in this case. What I meant by lot was the whole section- flat earth, geocentrism, etc.,which comes just at the beginning. I thought that the start Miguel made was good and it could be developed from there. Now the whole page lacks focus. Any change should be put in the Talk page for reactions and then included in the articleKRS 15:24, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

My original plan was starting from the top and working section by section. If we could reach an agreement on the Introduction like we had on the disambiguation notice, I would call that progress. Unfortunately, we now seem to not even agree on the disambiguation notice any more... -- Miguel

--

<<Whether it is a little or a lot it does not fit here- even one is a lot in this case. What I meant by lot was the whole section- flat earth, geocentrism, etc.,which comes just at the beginning.>>

Wouldn't an encyclopedia article on Creationism list a series of categories which would group the varieties of creationism? If you would not provide a list like flat earth, geocentrism, . . . to head the encyclopedia article on creationism, what list would you provide?

In my opinion, your insistence that the Creationism page should focus on the religious aspects of creationism is the genuine NPOV--because the religious aspects are what motivate the various forms of creationism. It seems to me that the creation scientists, for example, focus on religion, not on science. Would you say that the Hindu versions of creationism focus on religion, not on science? Rednblu 15:40, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think the spectrum of beliefs between creationists and opponents of creationism is very relevant to this page. Perhaps I should clarify that by geocentrism, Isaak and Scott are referring to modern geocentrists. The rest of that section I can take or leave. I've moved it below for comment. Martin

I don't think it is important at all unless flat earth is an integral part of a religious doctrine, which I don't think it is. If the concept of flat earth was employed by orthodox Christians for religious purposes,then the flat earth theory itself is not the focus, but a means to an end. You have also said "I think the spectrum of beliefs between creationists and opponents of creationism is very relevant to this page". But I don't think that you should start the opposition at the beginning itself. If you want NPOV, let Creationism talk for itself, and then introduce arguments for defence/ offence.

Now Creationism has got a universal meaning again and not even a sentence at the beginning about its predominant usage in the Western world..Why don't everyone agree on what it should be before developing the page further?--KRS 16:17, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think the reason that this scale of beliefs is recounted here, is because it describes various degrees of belief about the "scientific relevance" of the very words of the Bible. To the extent that people believe that their religion has given their adherents a head-start in the origins of the world, I think that these views are relevant, whether the religion is intuitive, revelational, animistic, or whatever - whether it teaches that, "this religion claims to have anticipated modern science by thousands of years", or "adherents of this religion believe that their views of origin harmonize with science", or "adherents of this religion hold science to be wrong about origins on such and such a point" - etc. The interest here, I think, is the interface between religious views and the science of origins. Flat Earthers are only there to illustrate a far end of a spectrum, if Creationism is described in terms of "by the letter" literalism. Mkmcconn 17:04, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why "scientific relevance"? I thought this page was about Creationism.

<<I think the reason that this scale of beliefs is recounted here, is because it describes various degrees of belief about the "scientific relevance" of the very words of the Bible.>>

Are you sure that the "scientific relevance" of the words in the Bible is important? It seems to me that the evolutionists do not consider the "scientific relevance" of the words of the Bible. Moreover, it seems to me that even the "creation scientists" do not consider the "scientific relevance" of the words of the Bible to be very important. Maybe the creation scientists consider the words of the Bible to be important revelations or matters of faith. So maybe the creation scientists fake scientific evidence to support the words of the Bible. Can you give an example of "scientific relevance" of the words in the Bible? Rednblu 17:43, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

As you have pointed out a number of times, Rednblu, the article can't be about what evolutionists think, but rather must focus primarily on what Creationists think. Creationists believe that their religion is scientifically relevant, or that their science is religiously relevant. That's why there is an "argument". If they did not make these claims of relevance, there would be no argument.

Thus, ID says that the facts point in the direction of a Designer rather than in the direction of mindless chaos (a religious statement of the most broad sort), and the Creationists say that their religious texts describe a real, historical state of affairs (e.g., not a purely subjective state of mind). Reconciling what their "religion says" with what "science says", is what Creationism is all about. As I've said many times, Creationism is an exercise in apologetics in the arena of science (not theology, and not science: religious people writing about science, and scientists writing about religion with the aim of harmonization or refutation of specific arguments, to legitimize a specific point of view). Mkmcconn 18:57, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

--

<<Creationism is an exercise in apologetics in the arena of science (not theology, and not science: religious people writing about science, and scientists writing about religion with the aim of harmonization or refutation of specific arguments, to legitimize a specific point of view)>>

All right. But would you say that the statement S = "Creationism is an exercise in apologetics in the arena of science" is a broad enough statement to include the whole broad spectrum of what creationism is? I can see that that statement S might apply to "creation science." But would that statement S apply to a Deist who calls herself a creationist that sees no conflict between science and theology because the Creator just started the clock ticking according to the laws of nature? Rednblu 20:05, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

In my opinion, it is broad enough for the purposes of this article. That's why it makes sense to me to split out theology per se, into Creation beliefs. For example, the Deist who views God as so distant and unknowable that nothing can be known of God except what can be deduced from the regularities of "nature" established by God, argues for Design. He believes that nature is imprinted with the rationality of the Great Architect, "self-evidently" (a favorite Deist phrase, right?). No, you have to step away one more degree, I think, into beliefs according to which God is either entirely unknowable, or the knowledge of God is identical to the knowledge of created things. In the former case, apologetics is futile, because there is no possibility of defending the knowledge of God by means of the knowledge of other things. In the latter case, there is no need for such a defense, because there is no real difference between the knowledge of God and the knowledge of other things. Do you agree with this flow of thought? Mkmcconn 20:45, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

So, how about a section in the Creationism article titled "Creationism as an exercise in apologetics in the arena of science"? I can see how that might flow--there are some interesting historical examples, I think. Rednblu 22:21, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

--

<<Do you agree with this flow of thought?>>

I immediately agree because it mesmerizes me. And I can see how that flow of thought could organize the Creationism article.

So would you include the Deists' rationalizing of "what religion says" and "what science says" on the Creationism page? And if the Creationism page is about rationalizing "what religion says" with "what science says," why wouldn't you include on the Creationism page the reasonings of, for example, the Scriptural geologists in 1820 as they attempted to rationalize "what religion says" with "what science says?" Rednblu 22:11, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Exactly, yes. I think that this whole line of discussion is within the scope of this article (and sub-articles, as is our typical habit to produce). And, congratulations on having dug up the very important connection to the "Scriptural geologists". Mkmcconn 00:39, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Changes in sequence

Have changed the sequence so that 1] Meaning 2]Introduction 3]Defining creationism [appropriate after end of Introduction (about new meaning in USA) as well as informing about various types/ conflicting views]4]Spectrum of beliefs- continuing the various types 5] creationism and evolutionism.....- KRS 17:52, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I had precisely these changes in mind. Thank you. Mkmcconn 18:59, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes, this is excellent, as is the merge of "introduction" and "definition".

Excellent. -- Miguel

Changes in meaning first para

Have changed first para by including all POVs- anyone can link anywhere. 1. already existing- general definition 2. added that it is predominantly used in Judaeo-Christian world- predominantly is not restrictive, other religions are not excluded. 3. already existing- specific usage to living forms[ what about the flat earth,geocentric beliefs the?]I have left it as it is, but depending on whether you want to add flat earth, etc., you can decide 4. already existing- theology- soul- etc., 5. added- modern day usage which is already there but elsewhere. As some experts in religion also feel that this meaning overrides most historical ones, this has to be included at the beginning.

So 5 POVs, any more?

Any problems?--KRS 19:20, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Also merged Introduction para and Defining Creationism para- they have a continuity in terms of discussion of meaning.KRS 19:29, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The first section heavilly duplicates the "introduction" section. Can this be fixed? Do we need a long first section, and a seperate "introduction"? Is some of this info better placed in a history section? Martin

As I have clearly mentioned there are 5 meanings now in the first section. This 'cannot' come later because I think this is the source of all conflict. The introduction can be toned down in whatever way that anyone sees fit. In fact, if the first section had been clear, I would not have even been drawn into this debate.Not for me alone, but for others who feel that creationism in the modern day usage has a lot of influence on today's way of life- teaching debates,etc., even religious persons in this debate have agreed on thatKRS 19:51, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

As KRS points out, it is essential that we have a good first paragraph to help us set the tone of the article. Once we agree to that first paragraph, we can edit section by section, removing inconsistencies or redundancies. The more we write the more constrained the scope of the article will become, and that will be help future edits. Once we get going, it will get progressively easier (I hope). We should make an effort to find a good home for any material we remove, of course. -- Miguel

I'm going to offer another synthetic arrangement of the spread of definitions, in just a moment. Please offer your <strikethrough>rejections</strikethrough> reactions. Mkmcconn 23:41, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

what do you think of numbering them, or bulleting the POVs described in the preface? Is it too hard on the eyes? Does it suggest too much of a dictionary scheme? I prefer the order of things as the preface stands, because it makes sense going from broader to narrower meaning (rather than from "most common" to "most rare" usage), but I'm not sure that the preface para makes clear that we are discussing only part of a spectrum of meanings. Mkmcconn 19:59, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

With due respect,Mkmcconn,I think my opening para was better, more crisp. There are only 5 sentences and they read as a whole without irritating disambiguation sentences, but one can still disambiguate by making links to words in the para - such as creation beliefs, etc., Detailed meaning is not required in this para, but you have given lots of details. Qualities of a good opening para should be disambiguating without giving separate sentences, unless you want it like meaning 1, 2 or bullets etc., which I don't think will be good in this context. As I had started in mine there is a sequence from more general to more specific meanings with a historical thread and bulleting them will remove this quality. I feel that if you find mistakes in ideas or grammatical errors, you can correct them rather than making a long intro. Or if you want to rewrite, at least you can try to fix the disambiguation problem by having links through words integral in the para.KRS 03:49, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

On second thoughts only your first para has this problem of disambiguation. Can you try to fix it?KRS 03:52, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'll try. Stay tuned. Mkmcconn 04:28, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

<<Though creation beliefs exist in most religions, the term is more generally used in the context of the Judaeo-Christian world because of its origins.>>

What does this sentence mean? Maybe you mean something like the following:

Though many religions have their own form of creationism, in America various creationist groups such as among the Seventh Day Adventists and certain Christian fundamentalists have formed a powerful political movement to lobby against the teaching of evolution in pubic schools. Rednblu 20:39, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

---

Mkmcconn, your removal of 'as opposed to impersonal processes of nature' is correct. It was a sentence which was already there, I didn't notice the difference. But now your removal seems to be correct because when creationism theory/ belief would have first made its appearance it is unlikely that there would have been scientific theories of evolution. So there would not have been anything that Creationism would have consciously wanted to oppose.KRS 09:06, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Reading your suggestions more attentively, I think I've undone some of the damage. What do you think? Mkmcconn 16:00, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

New New Preface

I have come to the conclusion that further participation in the creationism page is a waste of time. It would appear the overwhelming majority of people find it acceptable to delete factual representation of creationism beliefs because they don't meet their personal goals. There has also been several attempts to show both sides of the issue and these have fallen into one of two patterns. Where creationism shows weakness there is very unprofessional exploitation at the expense of creationists, and where creationism shows strength there is deletion or what is worse, more unproven theories are given as rebuttal.

By the way, I can't help but point out to all the pseudo-scientists that populate this page; two unproven theories that reach the same conclusion means nothing. Were math to be approached in such a manner we would've put all the mathematicians in treatment long ago.

Jtocci 09:55, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm about to give up too. My only hope would be if rednblu would agree to butt out for a week or 2 and let KRS and the 4 M's work on creationism without his interference. Eloquence can referee.

How about that, everybody? --Uncle Ed 14:44, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

If you could please tell your specific viewpoints in terms of your dissatisfaction, it would be good. As Miguel had suggested, and the general consensus is[ at least seems to be], is to start from the preface. The other topics can be dealt with subsequently.Do you have any objectios to the preface?KRS 16:59, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Jtocci, I don't object to the removal of the "Introduction" label, but I do think that we should keep some kind of demarcation between the disambiguating preface, and the main body of the material where we descend into details. What would you suggest as an alternative? Mkmcconn 15:07, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I removed it, not Jtocci.

Normally "primary topic" disambiguation is done in italics, as on Paris, and kept very short. Perhaps we need creationism (disambiguation)? Martin 15:51, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The reason that I like KRS's approach to the preface, is because the basic meaning behind the uses of the word is really the same - the difference between them is only point of view and context: especially historical context. I think that she is right, that the introduction must comprehend these diverse uses. I only quibble with trying to make the statements which summarize the POVs and contexts so brief and compacted together, that they are unclear in their meaning. Mkmcconn 16:00, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

OK, I can accept that. I tried to make a disambig page, but couldn't do it very well, so I'll concede that her approach is superior.

I've reinstated an "introduction" header at a different point, to cause maximum confusion... :) Martin

---

rather than traducianism which holds that the sould is inherited from parents.

I don't think we need it in the intro. On the one hand, it does clarify what material is covered at creationism (theology), but anyone who knows what traducianism will already know what we're covering there. So we can tighten the thing further, like this. Martin 15:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's looking much better, and clear. Mkmcconn 16:01, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I wonder if it would be worth adding ", rather than inherited", though... not sure. Martin 16:13, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'm going to leave it for a while, and let all my brain-knots relax. It seems clear enough. The preface is now a gem, in my opinion. I especially like the use of wiktionary there. Mkmcconn 16:21, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

---

The first two sentences in the preface are good,especially the way the links come naturally. But you[ I mean generically- I no longer know who is specifically making each small bit of edit:-)]

(cutting in) That's good! :) When you have a truly co-operative effort going, I often find that myself - edits get made, and because everyone's working in the same direction, I've got no idea who made them - or even if I made them myself! Precious times, and a lot of fun. :) Martin 22:26, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

...seem to have removed the Creationism[ theology]way of linking so there are 4 words 'creationism is the doctrine' serving as link. Can something be done about that? Most important problem is that the last sentence comes too abruptly. You describe creationism, and suddenly come to the creation controversy- the reader is clueless about this sudden creation controversy[someone pointed out that this new phenomenon is predominantly American so others wouldn't understand the context].I think the substance of my last sentence in the earlier preface can be reworded/ rephrased according to how you see fit wherein there is a description of how the new creationists see a direct challenge in science to their creation beliefs. You can easily make this in one sentence.KRS 16:53, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Go ahead, KRS. I'm soaking my head. Mkmcconn 16:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

... On second thought, you have given me some ideas. I'll fiddle. Keep critiquing (and feel free to edit). Mkmcconn 17:02, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

KRS, do you have an idea for how to thin out the excursus (in the west, in the US, among fundamentalists) in the preface? The briefer, the better, as long as it's clear, I think. Mkmcconn 17:12, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I will think about it. But I am totally ignorant of the whole subject, so I would never use terms such as Christian fundamentalist, etc., even if it were warranted,because I am a non- ChristianKRS 17:19, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Just hack away at the preface, to tidy it up. There is a thin and beautiful preface within, just waiting to get out. Mkmcconn 17:25, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

fleshing out the historical background

I think the preface is looking really good. KRS is doing a great job and we have Mkmcconn to make sure we get our Christian theology right.

Accordingly, I have moved on to the Introduction. I think the characterization of the controversy and its history is a little simplistic. I have distinguished between Darwin's books Origin of Species and the later Descent of Man. The first one was only really controversial among naturalists (Continental Europe clung to Lamarckism for a really long time), it left plenty of room for God's acts of creation, and did not threaten man's position as God-appointed Lord of Creation. It was the second book that suggested that men and apes had common descent, and left no room for a literal interpretation of Genesis.

I have rearranged the section slightly, and now it doesn't quite seems as coherent as before. Please feel free to hack at it!

I have said that the overview of the controversy is a little simplistic because, from the outset (around 1800) it involves much more than the origin of species. There were huge controversies regarding the age of the Earth, as geologists were beginning to discover that Earth had to be at least hundreds of thousands of years old, not just thousands.

The controversy seems to involve primarily evolution, but that's just scretching the surface. Both creationists and mainstream scientists have been aware from the start that there is an interplay among astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology when it comes to the problem of origins, and that often evolution is not attacked on biological grounds, but by undermining some other science's "theory of origins". For this reason, I would be happier if the article did not stress evolution as the only point of contention.

-- Miguel

The section reads a little bumpy, but you're on the right track. Can you address the flow of thought through this section?

I wonder what the weekend will bring? Looking forward to Monday, I hope I can keep my mind on my holiday. :-) Mkmcconn 22:03, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have done some reorganisation. Hack away as you please. I want to get out of this:-)---KRS 18:27, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I removed the following from the preface:

More specifically, it is used in the context of the three important monotheistic religions of the world - Christianity,Judaism and Islam.

It's probably true, but it's only important for a dictionary. For our purposes, I don't think it's necessary.

Also, I removed the word "traducianism" again, as I'd previously mentioned on Talk, for much the same reasons. This time, I replaced it with a piped link to the same place - perhaps this will serve us all sufficiently? Martin

Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Just a reminder... ;-) Martin

I am pleased to find that despite my edit conflict with Martin - losing three paragraphs of changes-- that his edits and mine were quite close, and indeed his were improved over mine own. Thus I am satisfied. :)-戴&#30505sv 19:09, Aug 30, 2003 (UTC)

Oops - Sorry Stevertigo! :) Martin

Moderates

Martin, you have added so much information on moderate creationism after disambiguating in the preface. Isn't it inappropriate?- KRS 04:36, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Well, there are two competing prefaces:

This article describes the modern Creationism controversy, a debate concerning the modern theory of evolution, predominantly associated with Fundamentalist Christianity in the United States.

and:

This article describes Fundamentalist, Christian forms of creationism that see certain theories and findings of science - especially the Theory of Evolution - as directly contradicting its creation beliefs.

I personally prefer the first version, but there's not a vast amount in it. I think the weak attachment to findamentalism is important, as a strong attachment means that we cannot talk about the beliefs and theories of Michael Behe, a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Can we discuss the creationism controversy without reference to irreducible complexity? I don't think so.

Setting aside that issue, I think the beliefs of moderate Intelligent Design advocates are very relevant to this article, as they are an important part of the creationist controversy. While Evolutionary creationists may not themselves be part of the "creationism" we discuss in the preface, their views are just as relevant as the views of materialistic evolutionists, who are certainly well covered. Martin

Martin points out - Do arguments against evolution support creationism? The answer - Nope. Arguments against evidence for biological evolution only could prove that the mechanisms described by scientists are not at play, and that some other mechanism is at play. That's it. These other mechanisms could (in theory) be some form of science we don't understand or know about; they could be a form of magick; they even could be the workings of the Greek and Norse pagan gods! But refuting evidence for evolution does not automatically give logical support for Christian, or any other form of, creationism. However, it seems that most Protestant Christians in the USA are pretty sure that evidence against evolution somehow is evidence for creationism, if not outright proof. Its not strictly logical, but its commonly held. RK 23:12, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

These are certainly solid arguments against the teleological argument: specifically, they suggest that said argument is an argument by lack of imagination. But surely we should cover such arguments in depth there, not here? It's a genuinely interesting philosophical debate, and I'm not sure we'll do it justice on this page. Martin 23:31, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Traducianism

rather than traducianism which holds that the sould is inherited from parents.

I don't think we need it in the intro. On the one hand, it does clarify what material is covered at creationism (theology), but anyone who knows what traducianism will already know what we're covering there. So we can tighten the thing further, like this. Martin 15:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Also, I removed the word "traducianism" again, as I'd previously mentioned on Talk, for much the same reasons. This time, I replaced it with a piped link to the same place - perhaps this will serve us all sufficiently? Martin Aug 30, 2003

And once more. Say, does anyone actually read this stuff? ;-) Martin 20:12, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Martin, hiding links, as you did with traducianism, is generally a bad usability practice. It should be clear from a link title what page I'm going to end up on.—Eloquence 02:50, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't think the word "traducianism" provides any extra information to most readers. Either they know about the creationism/traducianism dichotomy, in which case they'll know where the link will go, or they won't, in which case "traducianism" is meaningless anyway.

However, I'll try a slightly different wording. Martin 09:41, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The point is not to use a word that readers will know, the point is to use a link title that clearly shows that this link points to another definition. If we use the specific term for one link, and an unspecific term for another, that might lead readers to believe that the belief that souls are inherited does not have a substantial theological tradition. Furthermore, by using the word in the text, we provide a reasonably short definition for both terms without a need for readers to waste their time reading tons of exegesis.—Eloquence

I still believe that people coming here don't want, or need, a link or explanation of traducianism - it's purely a disambiguation issue. However, I'll give way. Martin 12:37, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have no problem with turning the whole thing into a standard disambig notice in italics on top of the article that only points to creationism (theology). If it's in the text, however, it should be reasonably descriptive.—Eloquence 13:30, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Right direction?

In spite of Eloquence's sarcasm-[Good work -less coherent?:-)] and also because of his additions now, I think there is some amount of coherence now in the preface and in the historical overview- especially now that the last para of the historical overview outlines the current definition.I hope that no one tampers with it now without discussion on the talk page. But just to add some more controversy:-)[ Mkn..please note] now that the creationism[ theology] is built into the introduction, because the link has the same name as the page do you think people would follow such a link? [I am just raising this question from my objective point of view, objective because I have nothing at stake and I don't know any POV] Otherwise, I think one can move further to the next section.--KRS 05:20, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

While much improved, the current article still emphasizes a very myopic view of creationism. To wit, creationism qua creation science. Even the disambiguation of creationism (theology) in re the genesis of souls is incomplete and incorrect, reflecting the bias of a scientific point of view rather than an NPOV discussion which would include a theological discussion of the underlying issue of what was the first cause. Nonetheless, as the content of the current article is expanded, I believe that the need for a separate article entitled creation science will become obvious. -- NetEsq 06:07, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I agree with NetEsq that creationism and creation science are not the same thing. -- Miguel

KRS, Eloquence, etc.: the "Creationism (theology)" link is buried, and is somewhat misleading. As written, it sounds as though the "traditional Christian doctrine" holds that God has only created individual souls of people, but has no doctrine that all things are created by God. What it means to say is that "the traditional Christian doctrine, called creationism, is not the same thing as the traditional doctrine of creation. I would like to see another round of edits on the preface, to fix this problem. Can you stand it? Mkmcconn 16:04, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I didn't mean it quite that way. I just meant that you could have clarity as to the fact that there is a traditional/ moderate/ theological/whatever type of creationism by either 1] having some word in the bracket or whatever or 2]the usual disambiguation clause along with the disambiguation of creation belief[ back to square one?]I don't think your point about the meaning is well taken because the first sentence clearly brings out the general meaning of the term- which includes creation of everything. The next sentence on creationism theology has to be 'read' along with the first sentence and includes the meaning of the first sentence, you don't have to again bring in the same idea.So I don't think there is a problem there at all--KRS 16:35, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Also, the sentence on creationism[theology] is the same as you had written previously--KRS 16:49, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Regardless of who wrote the sentence, it strikes me now as not being clear, situated as it is in the paragraph. '"Xism refers to act X for all things. Traditionally, Xism refers to act X for soul." Is familiarity with the subject required, in order to understand how "traditional" implicitly contrasts the meanings? It seems that the two sentences together unintentionally imply a contrast of, "soul" with "all things", instead of "use B" with "use A". You don't think so? Mkmcconn 17:14, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Will re-read it and get back-KRS 17:28, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

How about something more like this:

This article describes the creation beliefs primarily of Fundamentalist Christianity, that are strongly opposed to some findings of mainstream biology and cosmology, and to the Theory of Evolution in particular. The popular use of the term is assumed, rather than the terminology of traditional Christian theology according to which creationism is the doctrine that every human soul is created by God, as opposed to inherited (traducianism).

Mkmcconn 18:27, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Progress over Labor Day Weekend

I would like to thank everyone for laboring over the creationism article while I rested! It begins better, and reads more smoothly. Hats off to User:Rednblu who apparently abstained from the process for awhile.

One area of weakness remains: the treatment of intelligent design is little better than a rebuttal: it's almost entirely an argment against, and contains hardly any information about ID itself. The central thrust of ID, its contention that life shows "signs of having been designed" or its appeal to the concept of irreducible complexity, are both hard to find in the article as of Sept. 2nd 2003.

But otherwise, great work! -- Uncle Ed 17:59, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Maybe the whole intelligent design subject should be treated at intelligent design exclusively.—Eloquence

Joyce Arthur about creationism

• Arthur, Joyce: Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience? About creationist Duane Gish. Published in the Skeptic, magazine of the Skeptic Society, Vol. 4, No. 4, 1996, pp. 88-93.

The tone of the web site mentioned above is rather polemic. It doesn't do the whole debate a favor basically calling religious people liars, asking some rhetoric questions and then telling stories which may or may not be true. The other two references under evolution are of good quality. Isn't it possible to handle the whole stuff a bit less emotional? There are surely other good web pages. JackH 14:35, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Are we reading the same article? The article does not call religious people liars, and it does not tell stories "which may or may not be true". In fact, you have totally distorted it beyond reason. This article contains a very serious and well documented expose of the way that certain religious fundamentlists brazenly lie, plagarize and deceive their readers in order to attack science and push their religious views. This article is very representative of the complaints that scientists have about the way their work is deliberately misrepresented by the religious right-wing. (And I say this as a person long on the record as a religious person, as well as a scientist.) if countering scientific dishonesty, plagiarism and deception is "polemic" then all of science and history is polemic. RK 23:31, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

JackH, please do not remove links because you do not agree with the tone of presentation. Links may well be one-sided -- NPOV applies to Wikipedia articles, not to links. That's why we have plenty of pro-creationist links, even though creationists spend much of their time spreading fraudulent information about science and scientists.—Eloquence 04:37, Sep 16, 2003 (UTC)

@RK: Yes, we are reading the same websit ;-) If you think that the article well represents the level of argumentation of anti-creationists than we should include it. I wonder that you as a religious person don't feel offended by the very questionable opening citation of Martin Luther where he seems to be in favor of lying for a good cause. An opening citation is like a motto. Within this context it means that creationist are religious people thinking it is necessary to tell lies in favor of a good cause. To me doesn't seem to be a particularily good environment for a helpful debate. It rather heats up the discussion in an emotionalized way. I wonder if there are no better sites with arguments against creationism. However I agree with you that there might be right-wing people using unfair methods of debate. Within the context of the article it means that pro-evolutionists seem to be ill equipped if they have to resort to such a style.

@Eloquence: You are right. We probably should have this citation unless we have something better. However I took the liberty to attribute this source to make my views represented.

To all: As this seems to be an interesting topic for many I suggest that we put some energy in the article itself. For example we could deal with the individual arguments in a more intensive way.

I put the pro and con arguments in a table. They are mere outlines and need considerably more flesh. Neither pros or cons are really convincing unless more details are given. Who could help? --JackH 10:42, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Eloquence seems to think still that the Arthur site is a valuable resource against creationism. I do not share this view. The article cites the page as if it is an authoritative thing and even does a generalisation about all creationists as beeing similar to Gish who is severly bashed. This is not decent style. In fact Eloquence has wiped out such a tiny remark of mine as that labels the Arthur page as an example of an anti-creationist page. Really weird. He depicted the remark as 'POV'. However Eloquence may have it his way. There are other things to do ;-)

You just don't get it, do you? You want to modify the description of a single link you do not like to say that it is "an example of an anti-creationist page" (implying that it is representative, which may or may not be the case, but which is certainly a point of view that, if it is held, needs to be attributed), while ignoring the fact that we list 7 (!) pro-creationist websites without any commentary whatsoever as to their content. Both types of websites are clearly listed in their respective categories. What you are trying to do is to preemptively create an impression of bias or an inappropriate style for links which point to a side of the argument which you do not like -- attacking creationists where it hurts, their personal credibility (or lack thereof), credulity, and unfortunate tendency to distort the truth for their own purposes. This, however, is not a POV that Wikipedia itself assumes -- it is merely one which needs to be represented, among the other idiotic creationist diatribes, "creationist news" websites and the various other crap which your ridiculous movement keeps churning out at an impressive rate, fattened with the funds stolen from the gullible fools who fall for the idiot religion which this movement represents and who would love nothing better than to live in the kind of shallow and repressive theocracy which it seeks to create. Your point of view is noted, but it is not one which Wikipedia itself will ever assume, and the lies and distortions made by the creationists need to be pointed out whenever and wherever they occur.—Eloquence 21:23, Sep 18, 2003 (UTC)

describe your links (but on both sides). Martin 22:03, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The link is described, Martin. JackH does not merely want to describe it -- he wants the description to reflect an opinion.—Eloquence

Look past his bigotry toward the Christian religion, and listen to Eloquence on this issue. He is right. Please drop it. Mkmcconn 22:42, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

OK, I'll drop the issue attributing the Jocye reference. Perhaps somebody other might pick this up. A summary for those who didn't follow the discussion: Eloquence deleted my attribute to the Joyce reference which was worded as follows. A particular example of an anti-creationist page. Contrariwise he seems to think it is necessary to tell the readers that Joyce reference is a "critical review". In fact it is a primitive elaborate just bashing a creationist. The whole thing is cited in the wp article as if this is something authoritative. One would expect that we find the results of an effort of careful work not just hate-speech like the one above by Eloquence. If this is anti-creationism at it's best - well then .... :-) But why do we label this as critical? It is not so much the reference as such but the use of the reference which I think is not OK. Let's look at the individual arguments in the future. --JackH 14:02, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

<< [The Joyce article] is a primitive elaborate just bashing a creationist.>>

The above discussion prompted me to read the Joyce article, and I found it to be a very accurate narrative exposition of the fallacious forensic tactics that are typically employed by creation scientists. The use of such tactics is the essence of the creation science controversy and is the true source of the animosity that most mainstream evolutionary biologists have for Fundamentalist Christians, whether those biologists be Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, etc., etc., or secular agnostics/atheists.

Those who interpret the Joyce article as an indictment of Gish are correct in doing so, as Gish has always demonstrated a reckless disregard for the truth, and no amount of equivocation can change that fact. But for the tactics employed by Gish and his ilk, the topic of creationism would have moved on to more scholarly theological and philosophical questions long ago, such as the nature of the primordial first cause. -- NetEsq 20:49, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Why didn't God create the world as scientists see and explain it?

Would a Creationist or two, of differning views, please explin to me why, or if, Creationists believe that God didn't create the world complete with all of the scientific evidence to stimulate man, just as the many beautiful aspects of the world do so. It's surely within the capability of an omnipotent god to do so, so why isn't this answer used to eliminate the conflict between Creationism and science and have scientists be exploring the world god created for them to explore?

There are a couple of double-negatives in there, that make the question hard to follow. Maybe your question could be rephrased? If you have the impression from the article that, creationists do not encourage the exploration of the world on the presupposition that God created the world for just this purpose among other things, then that should be fixed. This is precisely what the creationists do argue. Mkmcconn 00:33, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Well, I frankly don't understand conflict between Creationism and science (and the fundamental beliefs of Creationists in relation to scientific records), so I'm seeking to try to better understand it, in the hope that curing some of my ignorance might resut in some questions or answers which can improve the article. I see no way for a scientist to counter an argument that an omnipotent god created the world complete with an intact fossil record, evolution to be discovered and whatever else, just as part of the design of the god, for the benefit of the humans created. Given that, I also don't see why teaching science is any more controversial than teaching art, for they both become no more than ways to study the creation. Scientist says "fossil record shows x billion years of history", Creationist says "Yes, isn't it wonderful how God created that record". Seems to me to be a very short conversation, ending in an a point which is completely irrefutable by any scientific method, but given all of the heat I must be missing something very significant.

It's a very old argument - as old as the discovery of fossils <G> - and the problem is that it requires a deceptive God - one who plants clues to a false past. Those who are uncomfortable with the notion of a deceptive God will therefore be uncomfortable with it. -- Someone else 01:17, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The "apparent age" way of harmonizing science with creation gives up the argument of creation science (CS of one sort, anyway). Creation science says that flood geology and miraculous creation are evident. "Apparent age" says that these are not evident, and attempts to explain why. Mkmcconn 02:48, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

And no way to reconcile science and Creationism by acceting a God who created a universe to please the minds given to those he created? Doesn't sound like that is going to be acceptable to at least some Creationsts, making it inevitable that those Creationists have to consider science to be an attack on their beliefs, much as a competing religion would be, even if just about every other (I can't think of another one which doesn't) religion acccepts science as something apart from religion. Is this a fair summary, (from the point of view of Creationists who hold this belief)? JamesDay 23:49, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Also:

• Those who support a literal interpretation of the Bible believe that evolution is an out-and-out falsehood (and possibly a deliberate deception as well).
• Since some sects of Christians are encouraged to witness for Christ, they tend to be unwilling to walk away from the argument. Some evolution supporters take atheism as an "article of faith", and are equally unwilling to walk away from the argument.
• Creationists may also believe that the preponderance of the evidence supports (some form of) Creationism, leading to arguments about data interpretation. -- Cyan 01:52, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I still don't know what people mean by "literal", here. If this is short-hand for a particular interpretation, it would help me if "six twenty-four hour days, global flood, and Bishop Ussher timetable" were indicated, instead of "literal". Too often "literal" seems to be a mild criticism instead of a description. Mkmcconn 02:48, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I am very curious to find out where the original question was first originated from. The fact remains, from a majority of Creationists POV, that God (AND please remember to capitalize this as it is a proper noun refering to a single entity; as apposed to god which could refer to any given entity other than the one in question - Jehovah) did in fact create the world full of scientific evidence to display His power. I guess the point here to be made is that God made man to serve Him and not vice-versa. With this in mind God created the earth and all that entails for His pleasure - Man being His greatest creation. "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let him rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." see Genesis 1:26 God did create man to rule over the earth. Actually, most translations would say God created man to be a caregiver - to watch over creation. A farmer takes care of his crop. A man takes care of his family. It is both a responsibility and, in a majority of the cases, an incredible joy. Therefor, it seems quite clear that the earth was created to "stimulate" us into learning more about the world around us. The problem that arises in the issue is not Creationism vs Science, but in fact Creationism vs Evolutionism. A point to ponder: Science is not without uncertainties. The problem arises when we as human beings want to be able to explain everything. How many stars are in the universe? What exactly is at the core of our planet? What are the other planets in our solar system composed of? Are there other inhabitabal planets in other systems? The fact is we do not know. The best we can offer is an educated guess based on what we do know. Call it what you want. Evolutionism is still a type of faith. It is a faith in the evolving process of creation. Creationism is the faith in a God who has the power to create a universe even down to the smallest atom. The term "literal" I would suggest to most Creatinists would mean God's creation of the earth in 6 days (please note that in Genesis God rested on the 7th day). Nhishands4ever

Reptile - mammal transition

Argument number 6 on the evolutionist side gives a reference - [1]. Could somebody specifiy which link is meant? --JackH 16:00, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

On the history of "the controversy"

I just tweaked the historical section again. I realize there is a disagreement in the interpretation of the facts, and the motivation of the actual events. So let's debate this ourselves in the talk page. Let me spell out my POV on this, so we can discuss it while I look for references to fully document it.

My idea is to frame the evolution/creation debate withing the larger question of the "problem of origins" (which should have its own page). Religious cosmologies are not limited to the origin of the species of living things, and humanity in particular, but include accounts of the origin of the Earth, and untimately the whole universe, more or less detailed depending on ow explicit the description of the actual cosmology is. Scientific theories of origins are similarly broad in scope.

Regarding the origin of the Earth (and the solar system), at the turn of the 19th century, Laplace put forth his theory of planetesimals. There is a famous anecdote in which Laplace recounts his theory to Napoleon, and remarks that God isn't a necessary hypothesis.

At around the same time, geologists were starting to discover that the Earth could not possibly be 6,000 years old, for a variety of reasons. See The Map That Changed the World: William Smith and the Birth of Modern Geology.

Also around this time, Lamarck's theory of evolution by inheritance of acquired characteristics was widely accepted, and there was no significant religious debate presumably because there was no concept of speciation, and more importantly, because nobody dared postulate a common origin for men and beasts.

When Darwin (himself an ordained minister) came along, the controversy was not with Christian cosmology, but with Lamarckism. This is actually the origin of the modern debate on macro/microevolution, on speciation as an observable phenomenon, etc.

It is only when Darwin applies his theory to humans that the religious debate starts in earnest. However, already in the 18th century Linnaeus had classified humans among the apes, but putting humans in a genus (homo) containing a single species. The point is that Darwin was not the first to challenge man's unique position in creation, but he was the first to do so in a way that was obvious to most people, which ignited the debate.

In the late 19th century, the geological dating of the Earth ran into trouble because it was impossible to explain where the sun could get the energy to shine for so long. The discovery of radioactivity solved this particular problem, dealing the final blow to young earth theories and also providing the basis for radioactive dating.

By the turn of the 20th century evolution is widely accepted, and the intensity of the religious debate is rather low. The creationist movement experiences a resurgence in the US around WWI. If I am not mistaken this coincides with the birth of the modern fundamentalist christians.

But the problem is that, by this time, the scientific debate has moved on. The fundamentalists were about 100 years late to influence the discussion of the scientific theories. Even their opposition to Darwin's theory is of a different character than the Victorian opposition.

Anyway, the current historical overview actually covers the prehistory of creationism (understood as an offshoot of fundamentalist christianity). A history of creationism since about 1915 is sorely lacking. -- Miguel

Yes, more on history would be great! --JackH 18:25, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Miguel, Playing the Devil's Advocate, or rather God's advocate,I feel that your current elaboration of the historical overview makes it look more like a historical overview of evolution. Can you make it into one para? You yourself have said that it lacks the 20th century history. Probably adding that would make it more balanced.

I made the changes I made because it seemed to me that the account of the when and why the reaction to Darwin happened was misleading. I will condense all of it into one paragraph. It is not my intention to make it look like an introduction to evolution. And I totally agree that Creationism should be presented on its own merits, and the scientific arguments against evolution belong squarely in the creation science article.

Regarding the history of creationism proper, in encyclopedia articles we have a tendency to overemphasize the oldest roots of whatever we are writing about. In this case, however, since it is agreed that the article is primarily about the fundamentalist christian creationist movement, all we have written on the history is actually prehistory, and that situation should be remedied.

Now, I am not qualified to write the 20th century history of creationism, as I can only write from the history of science side and, as I argue here, the scientific side of the debate was pretty much closed by the time the fundamentalists came about [POV alert!]. Since I don't know that much about the specific history, I found the article fundamentalism very instructive. -- Miguel

In an encylopedia Creationism should be understood for what it is rather than proving one's point either way. The talk page discussion looks as if a theological discussion is going on rather than arriving at encycopaedic definitions. And the arguments for and against Creationism in a tabular form makes it even more so.A summary would be much better than a tabular column. Everyday the balance seems to be tilted one way or the other.KRS 14:56, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The two creation stories in the Bible

I feel that the whole issue of creationism cannot be discussed properly without considering what the Bible actually says about creation in the two stories at the beginning of the Book of Genesis. I hope that other readers and contributors will find this of interest and use. (MG)

The Genesis stories are only relevant as an issue to Young Earth Creationism. Therefore, I propose moving the section into the article on YEC. Martin 09:49, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This is a bit of an overstatement. The way that the Genesis story is interpreted has very much to do with all versions of Christian Creationism. Genesis is supposedly irrelevant to "scientific creationism" (predominantly advanced by Young Earth proponents, to adapt their view for the public school classroom), but I'm not alone in thinking that this is a very strange claim. Mkmcconn 15:22, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Hmm. You're right: I didn't express myself clearly, and my thoughts weren't too clear too start off with. I'll come back later. Martin 16:33, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I would like to reiterate my point above. Creationism cannot be discussed properly unless we consider what the Bible actually says in the two creation stories. Then, and only then, is it possible to consider critically how the two stories are interpreted by various parties, both Creationist and not.(MG)

Lists of ex-creationists, ex-evolutionists

I believe that it is important to list people who have changed their mind on the subject, as it can help people gain new insights and understand certain arguments. Both creationists and evolutionists certainly point to ex-creationists and ex-evolutionists to make their point. Of course, only reasonably important people where their change of mind is well-documented should be put on the respective lists. Glenn Morton, for example, is well known in creationist circles, Michael Denton is a published author, David Fasold an (in-)famous researcher who tried to find Noah's Ark, Edward Babinski an outspoken critic of creationism. I have removed Michael Bragg, who does not seem to have published much on the subject besides his initial explanation.—Eloquence 20:32, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The most important thing to help people gain new insights and understand certain arguments is to have good articles. This is not really so at the moment (As seen from from any particular POV). To make the better needs a lot of work though ... There are already quite elaborate link lists on the web pages cited in the reference section. We do not need to duplicate this. We should concentrate on content. --JackH 20:59, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This is content. Wikipedia contains plenty of lists, see List of reference tables. I do agree that the article itself needs improvement in the argument section, but I'm too busy to devote much attention to it at the moment.—Eloquence

Link section

I understand that there are different opinions regarding the length of the link section. Isn't it a WP policy to have a few well selected links for each article? The quality of the article does not improve if the link section grows and grows. Instead of answering questions the reader is referred to find out himself. It means a lot of work to maintain link sections and WP is meant to convey more stable information.

Eloquence: Do you really want me to add another round of let's say 12 links showing people who once were evolutionist and now are creationists. No, ridiculous! Please do you link work for example on www.dmoz.org or your own homepage. You put in some more links I do not want. What has this to do with vandlism? Plz answer? ~~----

These are all bogus arguments. If you checked out articles like fiction, or the lists on List of reference tables, you'd know that Wikipedia is very much about providing useful and on-topic lists of links on a subject. The lists in this article satisfy both criteria. Yes, JackH, I would not mind having links to people who once were evolutionist, but to be relevant, these people should have made some publications about evolution before their "conversion", just like the people in the current list were known in the creationist movement before they left it. Just saying "physicist X no longer believes in evolution" or "mathematician Y is now a creationist" is not sufficient. That's why I have presently limited the list to evolutionary biologists, but it would be fair to also list physicists etc., if they have done work in the field of evolutionary biology before.—Eloquence 11:36, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Tune down a bit please. The fiction link list is motivated because it is leads people to WP articles, links within WP. And List of reference tables is an index to content of WP. Too times about stuff within WP. Please come up with real arguments for your link list feast you like to have. --JackH 11:48, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Jack, these links are within the Wikipedia as well. If you have an issue with the external links, then do not remove the in-house links, but discuss the relevance of the external links. Removal like you are doing without consensus will not get anyone anywhere. Dysprosia 11:50, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

There is no difference here. The links point to Wikipedia articles. It doesn't matter whether they exist or not -- nor did most articles on fiction when it was originally created, nor do many people on List of people etc.—Eloquence 11:52, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I advocate that an article should have a short list of well chosen quality links. List to other WP articles are fine. Maintaining different categories of external links with (probably growing lists) of who thinks what is a nuisance. --JackH 11:58, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

That's not your decision to make, JackH, and frankly, if you continue to remove these links, 1) the page will be protected, 2) you will be banned from editing Wikipedia.—Eloquence 12:36, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Well then, strong words, young man - your weaving the scepter of sysadmin power. Contrariwise you seem to have no problem with the idea of forcing people to maintain these lists. Did you ask here in the talk page if people want your lists? Anyhow let's not loose more time with this issue, write and see how these lists develop? --JackH 13:10, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Jack, just a little note, no one is asking you to maintain the lists, if someone would want to maintain the list, they're free to do so; this is a Wiki after all, everyone who wants to will pitch in. Dysprosia 13:18, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Indeed, no one asks me personally to maintain lists, but implicitly all contributors are asked. WP is a project with an encyclopedic aim, and that means comprehensiveness. Thus if we start such lists this automatically includes the urge for other people to maintain them.

I still think these lists here are not a great idea as there are already excellent link collections on this topic. (e.g. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/other-links.html). Eloquence seems to insist on having this list. He does this even at the expense of a threat of locking this page. Ts ts.. --JackH 14:19, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Some points: Eloquence will not lock the page, he will ask for someone else to do it - that is Wikipedia policy. All contributors are not asked to maintain lists - users are invited to edit pages, but they are not forced to edit pages. External link collections are not a good idea - as I have mentioned before users who wish to make the contributions to the links will not be able to do so if the links are not here.

If I understand you correctly WP policy has changed insofar as it is now OK to have large link list sections in the article? Generally I think I can adapt to this idea but I thought this was not WP style. --JackH 14:33, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea that I said that it is OK to have "large link list sections", I don't believe there is any 'official' policy to this regard. However it is standard practice - you have been shown many examples. Dysprosia 14:36, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

You say that external link lists are not a good idea as this doesn't allow us to maintain them. This implies that internal link lists are favored. The very nature of a encyclopedia implies that these lists may become comprehensive. Capito? --JackH 14:41, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. Internal link lists are favored because that it enables people to add to and edit links that don't exist. This is the point of the Wikipedia; it allows people to contribute. Removing links does exactly the opposite. Dysprosia 14:45, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think I understand you. You say it is good to have internal link lists and to edit them. I add that theses lists may grow because of the encyclopedic nature of WP. JackH----

I don't see anything really wrong with that; at the moment these lists are small - perhaps when they are considerably larger they will be split off into their own article. Dysprosia 15:02, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)~

The Bible: What it says and how people interpret it

If you are going to look at what people make of the Bible, it makes sense to look at what the Bible says before discussing how people interpret it. It is difficult to decide the ordering of the article, but putting interpretations of the Bible before looking at what the Bible says strikes me as putting the cart before the horse.

I notice that someone removed a sentence where I pointed out that many modern translations of Genesis effectively conceal one of the differences between the two stories with a non-literal translation of the word 'day' in Genesis 2:4b. What was the problem?

Also I noticed the sentence where I said that creationists have to explain the differences between the two creation stories, or ignore them was removed. Fair enough. If creationists can ignore this issue, there is nothing to explain!

"Other arguments proposed by creationists include"

Two Q&A's from the article:

10. " The "equation" for intelligent life is IL = information + matter + energy."

Answer - " For intelligent life to develop outside information is not necessary IL = matter + energy + a stochastic process "

[Onebyone] I don't understand this at all. I think that some significant percentage of readers won't understand it either, and therefore that it needs work.

11. "Nearly all mutations are destructive. Biochemical processes are reversible."

Answer - "The fact that we have life on earth cleary shows that evolution happend and that the gradual mutations and the selection process were sufficient."

[Onebyone] Two points - firstly, I don't entirely understand the proposed argument. It looks to me like an abbreviated version of something, and I think it's gone too far for someone not familiar with the full argument to follow it. It would be helpful if someone who is familiar could rephrase it so that it is more obvious what is being said, and thus what is being countered.

[Onebyone] Secondly, the evolutionist answer here is a classic example of begging the question. It states that evolution must be fast enough to produce observed complexity, because evolution is the process by which life develops, and observably life has developed. But the original point of contention is whether or not evolution is the process by which life develops. Now, it may be that this argument has been presented in the past by one or more evolutionists, but I think most of them would agree that it's a bad argument, and there are better ones which would be more representative of the typical evolutionist stance on the issue.

Since this is a contentious issue, I'd appreciate comments before touching anything. Oh, and I'm sorry that the formatting of this question is rubbish, but I'm tired and I want to go to bed. Cheers. -- Onebyone 01:08, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Feel free to write more. I put in the text for these arguments mostly as a placeholder for not forgetting to elaborate on this because it touches an important subject.

Currently I do not have time for this. Argument number 10 is a terse way of describing the factors for an evolution or creation process. The crucial difference is the question where the information comes from. Do stochastic processes produce information? I agree with your opinion about argument 11; I wanted to convey that many evolutionists (e.g. Dawkins) say that alternatives are unthinkable. So they have to stick with their way of thinking and do the best they can to maintain the theory. --JackH 10:15, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Much as I dislike Dawkins, I don't think it's a reasonable representation of his views to state that he says alternatives are unthinkable. He thinks they are thinkable, but that in each case where one has been thought of it either contradicts observed evidence, or else requires assumptions that he regards as irrational (such as the existence of God), or else is rational but is a less good theory than those he does subscribe to. He isn't completely dogmatic - his own work has contributed to changes in the details of evolutionary theory - he merely dismisses each rival theory in turn according to how he sees the evidence and how he judges rational belief.

The fact that I agree with Dawkins on many points is annoying, because I think that his methods and arguments have at times been distinctly underhand. But he has far stronger grounds for his views than you seem to give him credit for. Evolution is not (in the opinion of those who support it) by any means a theory on the back foot. Onebyone 10:44, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Split this article into two articles, or more

Creationism properly does not belong under evolution. If evolutionists want an article to refute the claims of creationism, then there should either be a section under evolution or an article specifically titled “evolutionary answers to creationism” or similar title.

The article on creationism should be written by creationists, not evolutionists. Then there should be a section or a separate article written by creationists to refute claims by evolutionists. All articles should be interlinked so that a person has all sides of the issue available to him.

(Evolutionists should want to do this, then they could stand on the sidelines and amuse themselves as they watch creationists tear each other apart: young earth creationists do not consider old earth creationists true creationists, while old earth creationists often use the same vitriol as used by many evolutionists against young earth creationists, and so forth. But I doubt evolutionists could keep their hands off long enough to be amused.)

Based on my experience, I doubt this suggestion will be enacted upon, as evolutionists, in particular militant evolutionists, do not want an honest discussion where people can exercise critical thinking, rather they want a population who have been indoctrinated into only one side of the issue; their side.

kwr.